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Kenai River king salmon fishery restricted

Posted: July 23, 2013 - 10:23pm  |  Updated: July 24, 2013 - 8:13am

After four days of dwindling late run king salmon counts on the Kenai River, the Alaska Department of Fish and Game announced Tuesday that anglers would be restricted to catch-and-release and trophy king salmon fishing through the rest of the season.

Beginning Thursday, any king between 20 inches and 55 inches in size may not be retained or removed from the water and must be released immediately, according to a Fish and Game emergency order.

Assistant area management biologist Jason Pawluk said the impetus for the closure was a “precipitous drop” in sonar estimates of king salmon in the river.

“During a period of time when we should be seeing large number of king salmon entering the Kenai River, we are not,” he said. “They’ve dropped faster than we really had anticipated and we’ve seen this trend since about July 15, we’ve seen our projections slowly go down.”

To track the estimated final escapement of chinook salmon in the river, biologists are using indices including run timing projections and harvest data in commercial fisheries to estimate the final inriver sonar count of the fish.

“All of those models are projecting a sonar estimate or what we call an inriver run that — with the harvest to date and any future projected harvest — would not meet the current escapement goal minimum of 15,000,” Pawluk said.

Shortly after the sport fish division released its emergency order, the commercial fishing division of Fish and Game announced a closure of the next regular fishing periods for east side set gillnet fishermen in Cook Inlet.

Citing low numbers of Kenai River king salmon, the order limits the setnetters to no more than one 12-hour fishing period per Sunday through Saturday management week.

The restriction is a new one for setnetters who were largely closed out of fishing in 2012 when the Kenai River king salmon fishery was closed; the idea came from discussions between local fishermen about how to pair restrictions between sport and commercial fisheries at times when king salmon are not available in large numbers.

In the current management plan, there are no restrictions required of the east side setnet fishery when the Kenai River is put on catch-and-release fishing.

The Alaska Board of Fisheries and a special task force created for the Cook Inlet discussed paired restrictions between the commercial setnet fishermen and inriver sportfishinge extensively over the winter and while they group could not arrive at a consensus on what those restrictions should be, one of the options that was discussed was limiting setnetters to fewer hours during the week.

Fish and Game managers took their cue from that discussion when considering how to limit harvest of Kenai-bound king salmon in commercial setnet fisheries, said Pat Shields, area management biologist in the commercial fishing division of Fish and Game.

“The department is choosing to use this as it is the best thing we could come up with that would be fair and equitable,” he said. Setnetters have harvested about 300 king salmon per fishing period, Shields said.

Mike Fenton, who co-owns Fenton Brother’s Guided Sportfishing in Sterling, said he was not surprised by the restriction and thought it should have happened earlier in the season.

“The fishing has been fair at best this season and our numbers have been so low that I think the majority of sportsmen, guides and private anglers would like to err on the side of conservation,” Fenton said. “I’d like to think that our brothers in the commercial fishing industry would step up and help conserve these kings as well.”

Fenton said he and his brother educated many of clients about the volatility of the king salmon fishery, especially during the last two weeks of the season.

“We kind of prepare them for possible regulation changes and most of the clients were aware of that. It’s not a big surprise,” Fenton said. “I think the majority of our clients are going to stick with the king fishing, some may jump over and do some sockeye fishing.”

While anglers can still retain jack-kings, or those under 20-inches long, any fishermen lucky enough to land a king salmon in the 55-inches or larger category is required by law to get it sealed at the Fish and Game office within three days of the catch.

None have been registered in at least three years, Pawluk said.

Fenton said he hoped the restriction would help the famed Kenai king salmon rebound.

“I think these are such a prized fish that I hate to see any of us killing them, either inriver or in the commercial nets. Our escapement numbers have been marginal at best for several years and with the declining fish size, which has been a trend for several years, I am afraid that we are losing the unique genetic gene pool that the Kenai is world famous for,” he said.

 

Rashah McChesney can be reached at rashah.mcchesney@peninsulaclarion.com.

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KenaiKardinal88
474
Points
KenaiKardinal88 07/24/13 - 11:46 am
2
1
Gross Negligence

The comm fishers sued to get more salmon and they have been hitting the Kings and Reds extra hard.

Are we supposed to be surprised that the Kings are dying in comm nets?

All the indicators were that the King run was weak, but the thugs got their way again and ADFG bowed down. It's too late you idiots - you've already destroyed the King run.

Not all comm fishers are Alaska residents - they will take, take, take until there's nothing left and they leave nothing behind because all we are capable of taxing is petroleum.

Beach Boss
124
Points
Beach Boss 07/24/13 - 02:23 pm
1
1
KK88 Get educated

KenaiKardinal88 here are some facts. ESSN have had 6 openers in the Kenai district and in the Kasilof district they have had 12 openers. We have not been "hitting them extra hard". ESSN have only had 1 extra 12hr EO period in the Kenai district.

Both the early and late run of king salmon in 2013 have a very high ratio of males. Could we selectively be harvesting all the females year after year and its starting to have an effect?

Here are some more facts. For the last 26 years Inriver users have harvested more late run kings than ESSN (which should be the case since it is a targeted chinook fishery).

So to blame ESSN is just plain foolish.

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/regulations/regprocess/fisheriesboard/...

WRO
116
Points
WRO 07/24/13 - 03:44 pm
1
1
Beach boss

Per ADFG, the ESSN's have reported (I'd bet the number is twice that, but unfortunately all of the enforcement is on the river policing the sports and personal use fishermen) that harvesting over 2000 LR kenai kings to the sportsfishermens 500.

To not blame the ESSN's for their role in this demise is just as foolish as not blaming guides. The fact that you guys got six days is just as sad as the fact that there was any retention at all during the sportsfishery.. Don't worry though, the com fish lobbies infulence on the comission will ensure that once again, this years problem was just too many kings spawning, so they'll lower the SEG to an even more un responsible number. (did you know that the current number is so low, that their is no historical data to correlate against?)

Beach Boss
124
Points
Beach Boss 07/25/13 - 08:43 pm
1
1
Come on

OK WRO you really think the gross under reporting comes from the Commercial Setnetters. Why don't you tell me about your reporting inriver. Thats right you don't have to report anything until the end of the season and then if you get around to mailing in your info. No in river data can be used for in season management but yet you have commercial harvest info within 24hrs. The creel survey does not account for every single fish taken on the Kenai River. Sorry to say the under reporting is not happening in the commercial industry near what is happening in river.

ESSN have historically taken 13% of Kenai Late Run Chinook. Any biologist will tell you that is such a low exp rate that you will never do any harm to the sustainability of that run. It is way to early to make any comments on the 2013 run. I bet this run will finish out around 24-25,000. But we shall see. Lets remember in 2012 the run was 29,000 and plenty of fish for all user groups to harvest.

Yes I know that the current number is so low that their is no historical data to correlate against. How are managers supposed to know what these returns produce if they never let a low escapement happen. Remember we are still managing for max sustained yields no where near a conservation concern. According to ADF&G data an escapement of 15,000 will have a sustained yield of 35,000 thats also the exact same as spawning escapement of 25,000.

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/regulations/regprocess/fisheriesboard/...

Your right WRO you and I are way more knowledgable to make these escapement goal reports. ADF&G has just been bought off buy all these rich setnetters to keep lowering the escapement goals. Give me a break.

WRO
116
Points
WRO 07/26/13 - 03:34 pm
2
2
Thank you for proving my point

First off..

The Kenai late run kings have never had a total total run size less than 35,000 until 2010.

http://www.sf.adfg.state.ak.us/FedAidPDFs/sp10-18.pdf

The fact that you think 35,000 is an acceptable number proves my point that, for you its all about money and blaming the other user groups. BTW, this year ESSN's reported harvesting significantly more fish than the sports.

I do think that the setnetter undereoprt their king harvest, by either selling them off the beach, giving them away, or for personal use. Its not in their best interest to report them or sell them to a cannery. If you count the trawl bycatch, un reported ESSN kings, fall out (kings that die, fall out of the net, and are not recovered), and the commercial troll fishery take, I would guess the actual commercial take is in excess of 40%.

As for your tongue and cheek comment at the end, If ADFG raised the SEG to allow for more fish to spawn at the expense of the ESSN and sportsfishery, you would be screaming at the top of your lungs how you should be fishing and their are too many kings. If ADFG closed the sportsfishing completely and still allowed you to fish, you would be fine with that as well.

Before you go into a diatribe about MSY, leading scientists are saying that MSY is not all its cracked up to be, in fact that more fish equal more nutrients in the river and create food for more smolts. Case in point, the last few years red runs have all been off overescaped parent years.

As for your argument about constitutional MSY, its maximum sustained benefit to the residents of Alaska, my contention is that the current UCI fishery allocation is in no way constitutional as it does not benefit the majority of users in any way shape or form. Instead it allocated 85% of the resource to at most 3% of the users.

They did the right thing in 2012, the only reason the run made 25K, not 29 as you claim, is because of the late component (After 8/1) that is growing and guess why its growing. Because no one is killing them, not set netters and not sports fishermen.

BTW I am not a guide, I am just a concerned conservation minded sportsfishermen.

kenai123
1312
Points
kenai123 07/27/13 - 08:55 am
0
4
Beach Boss

It must be awful to have to flavor every word with mis-information and manipulation. You must be getting tried of quoting your "13% historically taken of Kenai Late Run Chinook". Nobody believes those numbers. Those numbers are about the most outrageous claim anyone has ever tried to make about the Cook Inlet ESSN fishery. Do you actually believe that just saying something over and over will some how makes it true? Okay here we go lets see if it works.

The ESSN fishery historically takes 75% of Kenai Late Run Kings. The ESSN fishery historically takes 75% of Kenai Late Run Kings.The ESSN fishery historically takes 75% of Kenai Late Run Kings. Set gill nets should be banned statewide. Set gill nets should be banned statewide. Set gill nets should be banned statewide. Set gill nets should be banned statewide. Gulf of Alaska trawlers should be banned from fishing. Gulf of Alaska trawlers should be banned from fishing. Gulf of Alaska trawlers should be banned from fishing. The Alaska Board of Fish should be composed of individuals without special fisheries interest axes to grind. The ADF&G should be more concerned with constitutional public access fisheries than placating user groups. There we "beach boss" fixed the planet.

kenai123
1312
Points
kenai123 07/29/13 - 10:47 pm
1
0
Beach Boss

Regarding your command for KK88 to "Get educated"
If you watched history as close as you claim to watch district openers and male / female king slaughter ratios, you would also be quoting off what commercial fisheries did to our salmon statewide before 1959. You and your buddies will spend hours, days, weeks typing about catch number manipulations but in all my years of reading your posts I have never even seen one reference to the commercial destruction which laid waste to Alaska salmon back then.

Could it be the reverse of the "repeating a lie until everyone believes it"? In other words "if you never refer to it, it really never really happened"? Is anyone out there seeing what I am seeing day after day from Beach Boss? These are basic brain washing and mind manipulation techniques. Preach the manipulations over and over and never ever refer to commercial salmon destruction history.

Well I for one think it's high time for you to finally come out of your cave and actually discuss the thoughts and techniques which commercial fisheries had back then and how they compare to their current ways of doing business. If you are honest you will agree that nothing has changed. Commercial fisheries today would kill every fish the ADF&G lets them kill, the same as was done back in 1959. Please tell me of a single fishing period which commercial fisheries declined to fish because they concluded that it might be bad on a run of fish?

This is why commercial fisheries wiped out our salmon by 1959, because they are a machine without a reverse gear. This means that if our ADF&G came out today with an announcement that all commercial fisheries in Cook Inlet could fish 24 / 7 all summer, they would fish 24 / 7 all summer long ever summer until we had zero fish of any kind left.
Commercial fishing carries the power to destroy any fishery at any time. If the same happened to sport fish anglers they may fish all the time but a hook and line fishery does not carry the same capability to destroy as gill nets. This is why commercial limited entry fisheries and public hook and line fisheries should not be regulated the same as they currently are. This is the equivalent of regulating a whale and a minnow the same because the whale claims that they both carry the same possible environment impact. The reality is that the minnow does not really need regulation because it does not carry the same environment threat as the whale. This is REALITY EDUCATION Beach Boss and it has NOTHING to do with your mind bending fisheries number manipulations.

s2wheel
55
Points
s2wheel 07/27/13 - 11:09 am
0
0
Beach boss

Yes you may have had 1 ,12 hr EO, in the kenai area,what about the EOs for the kasilof special harvest area? You cannot tell me there were no kings caught then, they are destroying the kasilof runs,there is no such thing as TO MANY fish in a river, before commercial fishing or sport, and before in river goals were made there was an abundance of fish,a long time ago setnetters could only fish 3 nets now how many do they fish, it was unheard of for drift boats to put nets in the mouth of a river,that would have been a drifters dream,that is what the kasilof special harvest area is,we as Alaskans and the public should address this to the Alaskan government and be heard. By the way besides catching kasilof kings how many were kenai kings swimming around the mouth of the kasilof before going into the kenai?

Beach Boss
124
Points
Beach Boss 07/27/13 - 01:00 pm
1
1
S2wheel

You are not going to find anyone in the local dept or many setnetters who agree with the Kasilof special Harvest area.

But what you will find is many setnetters who believe in Escapement Goal management, and right now the Kasilof river has exceeded the upper end sockeye goal and headed to replacement point. Not good!!

What people forget A LOT is this is a mixed stock fishery. Chinook is not the only species. It is a very fine balancing act when sockeye are producing strong runs and chinook runs are weak.

WRO
116
Points
WRO 07/27/13 - 06:48 pm
0
0
bull

why don't you just come out and say it,. all set netters care about is reds. As for the ditch, the refusal of adfg to manage the second run kings is at the pressure of com fish.

this is a sockeye fishery, with a bycatch of kings. unfortunately set netting is an indiscriminate fishery that can't cleanly ( minimal bycatch) harvest the target species only like the drifters do,' and add such do not have a place in modern sustainable commercial. fishing practices.

bte, had the ditch ever not blown by the top end seg? perhaps it's to low.

GITERDONE
53
Points
GITERDONE 07/27/13 - 07:56 pm
0
0
Don't take more than you need

I have lived on the Kenai for over 25 years, I have sport fished, dip netted and have friends that are commercial fishermen, I lately have seen what appears to be an invasion of our resources. Dip netting has gotten out of hand. There are dip netters taking an excess of 1000 pounds of salmon in a single day from the Kenai river from one boat! I have no problem with people fishing for subsistence, but numbers like this are alarming. There needs to be accountability for every fish that is removed from the water. When dip netting is in full force the amount of salmon that is being shipped to people in the lower 48 skyrockets! Maybe they are catching them on hook and line? I don't know. The Salmon that are caught for subsistence use need to be verified that they were used for subsistence use! Not sent to a friend or relative or sold for monetary gain or let get freezer burnt and thrown away. Families here have been commercial fishing since the 1930's and before, they should be able to pursue their livelihoods. I put 6-10 salmon in my freezer a year, that is what I need and it does not matter if I catch them on hook and line, dipnet them, buy them, or shoot them in a stream with a machine gun, 6-10 salmon is my impact on the fish population. We need to regulate the dip netting more closely, and few need an excess of 1000 LB of salmon to feed a family!

My grandmother always said" Never take more than you need"

WRO
116
Points
WRO 07/27/13 - 08:36 pm
0
2
dipnetters

Are the least of the problem facing our king runs, and why should they have less of a right to the fish than the commercials? overall the dip net fishery provides the most direct benefit to Alaskans who don't sport or commercial fish.

I'll ask the question again, why should 3% of the users have 85% of the fish allocated to them in cook inlet?

JOAT
490
Points
JOAT 07/28/13 - 07:13 pm
2
1
Sockeye over escapement

Hey giterdone... don't be a jackwagon about dipnetting. Almost everything in your post re dipnetting is a flat out lie. There are no dipnetters taking 1,000 pounds of fish each day. That's such a load of garbage! It would have to be a family of 15 people that have a dipnet permit for 165 fish. Just how many of those do you think there are?

There are far too many sockeye getting into the river. Escapement figures have been huge for the last couple years, primarily because the saltwater commercial fishermen keep getting shut down. The nets are the reason why our fishery is so strong. If anything, they could increase the limits on dipnet permits.

Most dipnetters are doing nothing but taking what they need for their personal use (just like most rod-n-reel fishermen). The only difference is that instead of catching just 3 (or 6) fish per day and having to spend a couple weeks on the river to put some fish in the freezer, a dipnetter can make two or three trips to the beach and quickly catch the same number of fish in much less time.

The river bank crowding and environmental damage would be considerable if all those people had to be up on the river with hook and line. Dipnetting keeps them all corralled into a tiny little chunk of beach that mother nature recycles twice a day. The day after the season closes, you can't tell anyone has been there. Not so for thousands of boots tramping over 50 miles of river bank upstream. Leave them at the beach where the impact is the least and the benefit to individual Alaskans is the most.

As far as Kings are concerned, they are dying by the hand of the in-river COMMERCIAL fishing GUIDES who have participated in 30 years of non-stop slaughter of the biggest fish they could find. And after removing thousands those huge fish from the gene pool every summer for 3 decades, they have the gall to spread these lies about how it was the salt water fishermen who did it. Try again fellas.

JOAT
490
Points
JOAT 07/28/13 - 09:05 pm
3
0
What 3% of users?

I'm curious how WRO can make the 3% claim with a straight face? You do realize that Alaskan salmon is the largest sustainable fishery on the planet, certified by the Marine Stewardship Counsel? And that somewhere around 168,000,000 Alaskan salmon are caught, processed, and exported to millions of consumers around the world every year? The direct economic benefit to Alaska is on the order of $1,600,000,000 in exported product annually.

So, I'd really like to hear the case about how a couple hundred "commercial" fishing guides on the river are having such a notable economic impact on this state with a couple thousand tourists, such that we should knock a big dent in the food chain for hundreds of thousands of hungry people.

WRO
116
Points
WRO 07/29/13 - 07:49 am
0
0
Easy

Re-read what I wrote, I was strictly referring to the UCI salmon fishery.

Secondly, there are something on the order of 200,000 sportfishermen generating 640 million dollars of income to the peninsula every year. Compare the to the 33 million dollars brought in by the UCI commercial fishery. Not counting the thousands of Alaskan Dipnetters filling their freezers with winter protein every year.

BTW, when those fish are processed, the money goes out of state to seattle based processors, seasonal workers, and many out of state fishermen. Same can be said for sportsfishing guides, but their clients leave thousands each behind in the economy.

Secondly, do a little reading, the ESSN king take has been nearly equal to the sports take every year, so to just blame it on the guides and sportsfishermen is pretty narrow minded, which is what I have come to expect when posting from reading here. Lots of opinion, not much knowledge or reading comprehension.

I'll ask you again, why should 3% of the users in Cook inlet get 85% of the allocation in one of the only road accessible personal use/ sports fisheries in the state.

borninak
657
Points
borninak 07/29/13 - 11:24 am
1
0
Simple

WRO,

I'm going to give you a simple, respectful answer to the allocation issue you are so hung up on, even though you obviously have a huge prejudice against commercial fishing.
As you acknowledged earlier in a different post, if you consider the statewide allocation for all seafood, the proportions are even worse. This is because the commercial seafood industry has been a mainstay of Alaska's economical exports for generations, and that includes Cook Inlet. It was never set up to be fair (by the State of Alaska) and this fairness concept is the new American obsession. Now recently, we have a growing tourism industry demanding more and more of the fish. Cook Inlet commercial fisherman have given up months of fishing time over the years, as we used to fish from May - September. That is a fact. Cook Inlet fisherman are going to fight tooth and nail for what is left of their fishing industry because they can not give up any more. With huge investments in Limited Entry Permits, boats, site leases, equipment, it's a no brainer. Respectfull, I honestly can't believe you aren't smart enough to understand that. Its that simple. You may not like it, you may not think its fair, but that is the way it is, has always been in Alaska, and the fight will never end. We feel that there is ample opportunity for everyone to get their fair share of the fish with personal use fishing in June, dipnetting, sportfishing, etc. Seriously, tell me honestly you can't get enough fish. We could argue your fairness point to death on many subjects, including the money distribution in America. Why do 5% of the richest people in America have all the money all wrapped up. Life isn't fair, get over it. Now don't tear into me for my answer, just trying to be respectul and frank about the status quo.

WRO
116
Points
WRO 07/29/13 - 11:59 am
0
1
Times are changing

Borninak,

Times are changing, its simple as that. When it comes to conservation and equitable allocation of resources, the changes have been coming nationwide. Going are the days of one user group dominating a public resource.

The alaska constitution is pretty clear in article 8 that the resources are for the people, not some, all of them. In areas where there are multiple user groups, the resources should be managed for the benefit of all people, not 3% of them.

Whalers gave have stopped whaling, market hunters have stopped market hunting, its part or responsible management of our nations resources.

The difference is I do understand it, but I don't care when it comes to conserving a rare resource like the Kenai Kings. People have had to change occupations for years due to environmental and social factors, why is it so hard for this change to be any different.

As for not getting my fish this year, not worried about that. What I am worried about is the chance my children will have to see and catch (release most likely) a 60lb+ king.

borninak
657
Points
borninak 07/29/13 - 01:11 pm
0
0
Constitution Confusion

WRO,

I get the saving of the King Salmon. It's a worthy cause, and a responsibility (burden) that will be shared by all, guaranteed. Unfortunatley, myself and the State of Alaska, as in The Department of Fish & Game doesn't agree with your interpretation of sharing the resource. Again, you want some ridiculous amount of fish allocated that the public user couldn't possibly consume in the name of fairness. The resource is for the people, and your getting incredible access. Personal use for 10 days in June, sportfishing year round, dipnetting for weeks, etc, etc. Read the police report in the Clarion today. It reads like a broken record all summer, one Anchorage guy after another repeatedly being cited for taking personal use fish away from the area illegally. The point is thousands of state residents are taking fish home legally and illegally and we have no way of knowing how many. Yet you choose to scream one group is "dominating" a public resource and thats completely irrational. I will never buy it, Fish & Game doesn't buy it and things aren't going to change to your liking anytime soon. I believe commercial fishing can responsibly harvest surplus salmon and your children and mine will get to catch a Kenai King in the years to come.

WRO
116
Points
WRO 07/29/13 - 01:32 pm
1
0
Its really not

Borninak,

Unfortunately your bias does not allow you to see the issue objectively. The paradigm by and metrics by which you evaluate the success of a fishery and its management is funny to me.. I would guess weather it be Bengahazi or the iraq war, you have at least some mistrust of government. In fact I have seen you blast KSRA in other posts for government collusion etc.. Yet you take everything ADFG tells you as spoon fed honesty with no political pressure involved..

I have never come out as completely against commercial fishing, because I am not. I am not in favor of non selective commercial fishing. I.E. trawling, Set netting, etc. The Selectivity by which ADFG has managed the run timing on the kenai has virtually wiped out the middle of the Red run and consequentially the peak of the king run as well. Hence why you have big #'s of early reds <7/15 for a relatively short period and then good numbers in August many years. Same with the King #'s. The peak of the run has been overharvested... The reds responded, but the kings haven't because they do not have the fecundity and the numbers to build off at the end of the run.

Beach Boss
124
Points
Beach Boss 07/29/13 - 01:33 pm
0
1
What more do you want??

WRO what more do you want? In river fishery has the whole early run king salmon fishery, the majority of the silver run, majority of the late run kings, plus allocated sockeye. Is that not enough??

Yes I do believe ADF&G data on harvest numbers. Yes KK123 ESSN exp rate on average for late run king salmon is 13% and inriver exp rate is 22%. I know you think we are all just a bunch of liars and law breaking citizens that don't report our catch. Give me a break. ESSN are lawyers, doctors, nurses, teachers, hardworking families not crooks you make them out to be.

In order to increase the inriver exp rates you would need more angler participation, longer seasons, increased bag limits. Is this what you guys want to get your harvest number increased since that seems to be the only number you care about.
http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/regulations/regprocess/fisheriesboard/...

Yes commercial fisherman have the majority harvest when it comes to sockeye because they are to harvest the excess. Personal use fisherman take well in excess of 500,000 sockeye, inriver fisherman get 400,000, subsistence native fisherman get their share. There is still enough sockeye to have a commercial fishery in UCI.

I ask again WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?? Can you not catch enough sockeye, kings, and silvers??

WRO
116
Points
WRO 07/29/13 - 02:40 pm
1
0
What I want....

I want kings to be there for my kids, I want ADFG to focus on conservation rather than harvest, I want balanced management for cook inlet that addresses all species and user groups, not just Kenai and Kasilof commercial sockeye fishery at the expense of the Kings and UCI sockeye fisheries. I'd like to see selective harvest implemented both commercially and recreationally with a goal of conservation rather than harvest.
I'd like to see bycatch monitored and limited at a much higher rate in the Trawl fisheries, complete with genetic testing of the bycatch to see where the wasted salmon are going.

I have seen your posts, the only thing you care about is mine, mine, mine, and its everyone elses fault. Attitudes like yours (both on the Com fish and Sport fish side) are what got us here..

borninak
657
Points
borninak 07/29/13 - 03:21 pm
0
0
Objectivity?

WRO,

Objectivity - judgment based on observable phenomena and uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices. Here's a few little problems with yours, before you go judging others objectivity.
1.) I clearly showed you where king salmon harvest by ESSN is NOT bycatch according to the Magnuson Stevens Fishing Conservation and Management Act, the primary law governing marine fisheries in the US. Yet you still spin your own irrelevent definitions, throw it out there over and over in an attempt to demonize the fishery. Is that a bias you have or perhaps an objectivity problem?
2.) You think I am odd for believing The Alaska Department of Fish & Game is credible over a political action committee with paid off biologist like the Kenai River Sportfishing Association? You lambast the State of Alaska Biologists and say they are all corrupt, but want me to believe you have no bias and are oh so objective?
3.) You say you have never come out completely against commercial fishing? Really! I must be so confused. I keep missing where you post ANYTHING supportive of commercial fishing but for all the hatred
4.) "The Selectivity by which ADFG has managed the run timing on the kenai has virtually wiped out the middle of the Red run and consequentially the peak of the king run as well." Are you a professionally trained biologist that know these things so much clearer than anybody else? Were you fishing for the last fourty or fifty years to have observed decades of fish trends and have such a grip on things?
I may have some biases, but at least I'm man enough to admit it right here, right now. How about you. I wouldn't want to be a hypocrite now would I?

WRO
116
Points
WRO 07/29/13 - 03:59 pm
1
0
Common sense of a gerbil

This will be easy..

1. Name a commercial EO or otherwise on the east side of cook inlet that doesn't say sockeye in it. I have yet to see an EO in 25 years that addresses kings as the harvest target. You can quote whatever you want, but they were the target species, they wouldn't be the constraint on your season.

2. So you think lowering the overall SEG to a total run size goal less than every run on record before 2009 is responsible and not politically driven? Even you can't be that dense. If you look at reds, more reds in river has equaled more returns down the line. Hence the constant rise in the escapement by ADFG. Why doesn't that work for kings?

3. I have on here three or four times that the drift netters can adequately harvest the red run. I have no issue with selective fishing. Although the more I interact with ESSN's and all of my interactions to date.. You maybe right, I don't like people who only care about themselves at the expense of the resource and conservation.

4. I only have 20 years of watching the runs and fishing the Kenai, and this is just observational data, but traditionally there was a large number of fish that ran through the last 10 days of July, with both large commercial and sport catches. Now you have a massive push in the second week of july and then slow sustained run <20 to 30k a day passing the counters until 8/1. If you look back on data over the last 30 years, this massive push the week of 7/10 - 7/15 is a relatively new shift in run timing. In large part to the middle of the run being put under the most commercial pressure.

I care about the resource, not about commercial fishermen on either side of the aisle. The world full of greedy people, there is no shortage. Its not full of 75lb salmon or beautiful glacier fed rivers.

kenai123
1312
Points
kenai123 07/29/13 - 10:40 pm
1
1
borninak

borninak,
Regarding "Cook Inlet fisherman fighting for what is left of 'their fishing industry' because 'they can not give up any more'.

Who is the "their" in "their fishing industry"? Limited Entry?
Who is the "they" in "they can not give up any more"? Limited Entry?

All of Alaska's commercial fisheries are constitutionally owned by ONLY the Alaskan public and not "Limited Entry" Limited entry law was constructed with limited entry vacating fisheries as public fish demand increased. If you don't believe this try doing some legal research. Limited entry was constructed to give up fish to the public regardless as to the financial effect it may have on limited entry. Limited entry was constructed to absorb fisheries surplus and not prevent the public from fisheries access. So you are not fighting for "fish, income or what is left"; you are in fact fighting our constitution. Good luck with that...

"Cook Inlet fisherman are going to fight tooth and nail for what is left of their fishing industry because they can not give up any more. With huge investments in Limited Entry Permits, boats, site leases, equipment, it's a no brainer. Respectfull, I honestly can't believe you aren't smart enough to understand that. Its that simple. You may not like it, you may not think its fair, but that is the way it is, has always been in Alaska, and the fight will never end."

kenai123
1312
Points
kenai123 07/29/13 - 11:20 pm
0
2
GITERDONE

Giterdone, you claim dip netting is an invasion of our resources? That dip netting has gotten out of hand?That dip netters are taking to many fish? That dip netters need to be more accountable? That all you need is 6-10 salmon in the freezer a year? That your grandmother says not to take more than you need?

The word "invasion" defines as attack, infringement, transgression or trespass. The Alaskan public owns all of our fisheries resources and (public dip netting access) is therefore (the owner of the resource) accessing the resource and not an infringement.

How can the owner of a resource get out of hand accessing his own property? We have plenty of public rules and regulation to properly control dip netting.

Regarding you only needing 6-10 salmon in the freezer a year? You are claiming that because you only desire to eat 10 salmon, that nobody could desire to eat more than 10 salmon. Okay, I know a commercial gill netter who only killed enough fish to just pay for his costs so I believe that all commercial fishermen should only be able to kill just enough fish to barely pay operational costs? What are you thinking? Some people will eat 10 salmon a week. Just because you want to eat pizza all the time doesn't mean everyone wants to do that.

Regarding "take more than you need"? Is that what commercial fishing does, does it only take what it needs? No, it kills every last fish the ADF&G will let them kill. So please tell me how could the owner of our fisheries resource do any worse than the commercial fishing industry?

Beach Boss
124
Points
Beach Boss 07/29/13 - 11:32 pm
2
0
Common sense what???

You could not be further from the truth WRO, I am not all mine, mine, mine. I am a 3rd generation commercial fisherman in UCI and am raising a 4th generation fisherman. Just like you want your children to be able to see and catch (release most likely) a 60lb+ king. I also would like my children to have the up bringing and work ethic that I was taught on the beach as a child.

I will address your comments below..
1. Name a commercial EO or otherwise on the east side of cook inlet that doesn't say sockeye in it. I have yet to see an EO in 25 years that addresses kings as the harvest target. You can quote whatever you want, but they were the target species, they wouldn't be the constraint on your season.

Are you really serious?? Whether you like it or not we are a sockeye fishery with our total catch of less than 1% kings. If we were wanting to target kings we would be using 8" mesh to catch kings which would let all the sockeye go. Have you seen the EO's this year and in 2012 season that have restricted ESSN fishing time. Yes sometimes our exp rate of 13% is to high to make escapement goals and so we lose time for low abundant kings. ESSN have done their share of shouldering the burden of conservation for Kenai Kings!!!

2. So you think lowering the overall SEG to a total run size goal less than every run on record before 2009 is responsible and not politically driven? Even you can't be that dense. If you look at reds, more reds in river has equaled more returns down the line. Hence the constant rise in the escapement by ADFG. Why doesn't that work for kings?

WRO have your read the new Kenai River Late run Chinook escapement goal report? I know its still in draft form but I know it has been peer reviewed and not many changes will happen in the final draft. Its some interesting reading. These high paid scientist are the ones who came up with the escapement goal of 15,000-30,000 not some rich fisherman who bought and paid off ADF&G.
http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/regulations/regprocess/fisheriesboard/...

3. I have on here three or four times that the drift netters can adequately harvest the red run. I have no issue with selective fishing. Although the more I interact with ESSN's and all of my interactions to date.. You maybe right, I don't like people who only care about themselves at the expense of the resource and conservation.

Selective fishing what are you talking about?? Why don't you ask the northern district how that selective fishing is working out for them??

4. I only have 20 years of watching the runs and fishing the Kenai, and this is just observational data, but traditionally there was a large number of fish that ran through the last 10 days of July, with both large commercial and sport catches. Now you have a massive push in the second week of july and then slow sustained run <20 to 30k a day passing the counters until 8/1. If you look back on data over the last 30 years, this massive push the week of 7/10 - 7/15 is a relatively new shift in run timing. In large part to the middle of the run being put under the most commercial pressure.

Weird I think the same thing about the king run coming in stronger in August. There is no in-river pressure in August and so that part of the run is strong and healthy. But those essn are still fishing in August. So how could that be since we are the problem??

One more thing we have in common, I too care about the resource, but refuse to be the scapegoat for the decline in chinook salmon across the state of Alaska.

WRO
116
Points
WRO 07/30/13 - 07:49 am
0
0
BB

1. You are right, it is a sockeye fishery and kings are bycatch of the targeted species. Thats my point. I have seen you guys limited this year and last, just as the sportsfishermen were limited.

2. I have read it, numerous times. It still doesn't change the fact that 1. The SEG was not lowered for the rest of Alaskan rivers during a time of low abundance and poor ocean conditions 2. I have been reading fisheries and fishery politics for as long as I can remember. Decisions seem to be rarely made solely on what is best for the resource with no political influence. Look at the BOF refusing to meet on the peninsula last year due to fears that it would be too heated. The whole premise by which salmon are managed in AK (MSY) is under question by leading scientists from NOAA and other organizations. Fisheries science and management is an ever evolving thing. Until the paradigm switches from harvest to conservation, the runs will continue to decline.

3. Selective fishing mean that you harvest your intended quary with minimal bycatch of non target species.

4. You guys fish maybe 48hrs openers in August with not a lot of participation. The silver fishery does not get a lot of participation early in the river either. To use that as a argument is pretty weak.

Where have I said that the ESSN's are the only problem, there are a myriad of issues effecting the kings, including but not limited too: Trawl bycatch, in river targeting of the most successful spawners, ESSN harvest, and depletion of their food sources, and ADFG's management principles.

Beach Boss
124
Points
Beach Boss 07/30/13 - 11:59 am
0
0
Wro almost there

1. As stated above by borninak. Chinook salmon harvested by ESSN are NOT bycatch. Silver salmon harvested by drifters are NOT bycatch. Although sockeye is our targeted species we do catch other salmon. But our permits allow us to harvest ALL salmon there for making it not a bycatch. Yes we have lost 99% of our season in 2012 and 50% of our season in 2013 for low abundance of chinook, the inriver fishery has other species to move to. With the total chinook closure in 2012 inriver user guides guestimated they lost about 3% of their business. ESSN are definetly shouldering the burden for conservation.

2. The SEG was NOT lowered. It was adjusted for the new didson sonar. Kind of like miles vs kilometers. 2 different measuring techniques. Here is direct quote from ADF&G website. "Past escapements will not be converted to DIDSON by a standard metric. There is no conversion from previously used dual-beam sonar or split-beam sonar to DIDSON."

3. "Selective fishing mean that you harvest your intended quary with minimal bycatch of non target species." Having the drifters harvest 100% of Kenai sockeye are having an impact on silver salmon in other rivers and streams in Alaska (Northern district). They do not have as selective gear as you think and do harvest other species as well. Have you seen how many silvers they catch? Tradeoff is what UCI fishery is all about. Do you have selective fishing inriver?? When you fish for silvers do you ever catch kings? When you fish for reds do you ever catch silvers? It's called "fishing" not "catching" for a reason. I sure wish there was some magic idea or trick to get other fish from swimming into your hook or my net.

4. Until the last couple of years where kings have been a problem we have had WAY more than 48 hours in August. August typically is about 30% of our season.

I was interested to see you say that ESSN are not the only problem. Sorry I didn't get that feeling from KK123, and KK88 and your posts. So thanks for clearing that up.

WRO
116
Points
WRO 07/30/13 - 12:54 pm
2
0
this is everyone's problem

BB,

This is every user groups problem, not just the com or sports fishermen.

To see everyone blame everyone else without looking in the mirror is the crux of how we got here. The unwillingness to make voluntary change and that no one cares about their impact only ensures further the further decline of the fishery.

I know within the sportsfish community, there is a ton of debate about c and r, yet the science show about a maximum of 10% mortality on in river catch and release.

When adfg enacts closures on the set net fisheries, you guys sue for more time. When the trawlers get cracked down on their by catch, the dummy up their scales and fight genetic testing of the salmon by catch. The pst, consistently ignores this in the overall allocations species wide to ensure that people can have their fish sticks. not to mention the wholesale harvest of our salmons forage.

I'm worried kings well be a thing of the past when I'm old enough to retire.

borninak
657
Points
borninak 07/30/13 - 01:30 pm
0
0
WRO vs 123

WRO,

I am impressed you acknowledged this is every user groups problem and we have all had a hand in it. For a while there I thought you were just another 123 pychotic commercial hater who has NEVER conceded anything as a king killing Kenai River Guide because HE is so virtuous. He's so off the chart he can't even admit he is commercial despite the fact he MUST have a commercial business license from the State hanging on his wall. Anyway, we have some differences of opinion, but what you said about ocean survival, trawler bycatch(they can't sell them), In River users targeting large kings, ESSN harvest and maybe even ADF&G could do a better job, It's a tought job...You are right on target. . Now what we need are solutions and less finger pointing.

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