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File photo/Peninsula Clarion
In this Clarion File photo from 2009, king salmon anglers work the Kenai River.

Kenai king fishing to close Sunday

For second year, record low escapement prompts Fish and Game closure

Posted: July 26, 2013 - 4:56pm  |  Updated: July 26, 2013 - 7:03pm

After a brief stint in catch-and-release fishing, the Kenai River will close to king salmon fishing beginning Sunday morning at 12:01 a.m. through the remainder of July. 

Managers do not project making the final sustainable escapement goal of 15,000 to 30,000 king salmon in the Kenai River according to the emergency order released by the Alaska Department of Fish and Game on Friday. 

"Our counts are low for this time of year indicating that if the run is coming in on time, that it's going to be low and based on our projections — using different mean run timing models, projected harvest upstream of the sonar and the projected catch and release mortality through the end of the season — we are projected to not make the lower end of the escapement goal," said Jason Pawluk, assistant area management biologist at Fish and Game. 

By Tuesday, fewer than 9,000 king salmon had been counted by Fish and Game's sonar at river mile 8.6, down from more than 10,000 at the same time in 2012 — a year manager's said could have been the worst on record. 

According to the department's creel survey data, 1,341 king salmon have been caught and kept by anglers this season. 

Last year, the Kenai River sport and commercial fishermen were restricted after king fishing was closed for the season on July 19, prompting a federal economic disaster designation. 

While fishermen have had more fishing opportunity this season than in 2012, sport fishermen on the Kenai River were restricted to catch-and-release and trophy fishing only for king salmon last week, while setnetters have sued Fish and Game in an attempt to gain extra fishing time. 

Guided sport anglers had just two days left in their season, however the closure still causes a significant economic loss to some.

Dave Goggia, owner and operator of Hooky Charters based out of Kenai, said he had eight people booked to go king fishing Tuesday and two booked for Wednesday — the last day of the king salmon season on the Kenai River. 

Despite the loss, Goggia said he would have advocated for a closure earlier in the season. 

"We talked to (Fish and Game) about it when they went to catch and release," he said. "We said, 'You know if it's that bad, why wouldn't you just close it?"

The inriver king closure will force a simultaneous closure for East Side setnetters in the the Upper Subdistrict of the Cook Inlet  according to the Kenai River Late-Run King Salmon Management Plan. 

Pat Shields, area management biologist in the commercial fishing division of Fish and Game, said setnet fishermen would remain out of the water until "further notice."

While the management plan on the Kenai River for late run kings only requires a mandatory closure of the setnetters through July 31 — the end of the king salmon fishing season— Shields said Fish and Game would not reopen the setnet fishery unless the king salmon projections met the minimum sustainable escapement goal in the Kenai River. 

While the setnetters could legally be reopened beginning Aug. 1, Shields said it was unlikely if the numbers of king salmon were still low. 

"Why would we close the sport fishery in July over king salmon conservation and then allow the commercial fishery to go out and harvest kings in August," he said. "That's just not prudent."

Robbie Williams, president of the Kenai Peninsula Fishermen's Association and a setnet fishermen on South Cohoe in Kasilof, it was likely that setnetters would remain out of the water for the rest of the season. 

"It's going to take more than 500 kings a day through the counter to bring the (king salmon) projection up," Williams said. "The problem right now is we're just getting over these 20-foot tides and the kings never move on these big tides, so the timing is horrible. I'm guessing we'll be in the same scenario we were in last year where we get a strong showing of kings late in the season but it'll be too late for us to catch sockeye."

Editor's Note: This article is being consistently updated as this story unfolds. 

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JOAT
487
Points
JOAT 07/26/13 - 08:33 pm
3
0
Shut it down

So the commercial river guides were allowed to slaughter 1,341 Kings so far this season? I wonder how many times that number of "catch & release" also die before getting the chance to spawn.

The in river King fishery needs to simply be shut down. Lock it up and throw away the key. If ya'll stop fishing Kings now and let the runs start to recover, there might be enough fish somewhere around 2026 to start fishing them again.

WRO
116
Points
WRO 07/26/13 - 09:04 pm
0
0
better closer the essn's as well then

Joat, the essns killed more than the sports this year, btw c&r mortality is less than 10% including bait which wasn't allowed this year.

I agree though, raise the SEG from the current unrrponsibly low number, and then close all of the harvesters until a lower end seg of at least 25k can be met. Shooting for a totsl run of 35000, less than almost every run pre 2009, is a travesty put in place to allow for irresponsible harvest instead of conservation of one of the greatest strains of kings on the planet.

kenai123
1312
Points
kenai123 07/27/13 - 01:03 am
1
1
The need is to close the ESSN's

The only reason the ADF&G wants to close anglers on the Kenai River is because the they know they need to close the ESSN's to protect what is left of the kings. The ADF&G believes that if they close only the ESSN's and leave the river open to hook and release, that the ESSN's fishermen will go completely foaming at the mouth nutso. The ADF&G knows that king mortality from angler H&R is so low that it is meaningless but they are willing to unconstitutionally restrict the public just to avoid arguing with the ESSN's.

kenai123
1312
Points
kenai123 07/27/13 - 01:32 am
1
0
a strong showing of kings late in the season?

You got that one right Robbie, we all know that the same scenario we were in last year is going to happen again this year with a strong showing of kings late in the season. The commercial fishermen know it, guides know it, even the general public knows it. So why doesn't Jason Pawluk know it?
All of our ADF&G computers are whissing away projecting a current king run from runs decades ago. Trouble is our ESSN's killed off most of the kings trying to get into the Kenai River in July. So only the kings who came in late historically evaded the set gill nets and had off-spring. Those generations of returning kings also carry the trait of late arrival so they can also avoid the set gill nets of July. Now we just need to switch our sport fish king season from July to August and anglers will be good for a few years... until the set gill netters eventually demand to also fish all of August. Then we can move king season to September and then October and then November.... Maybe we should just acknowledge what is happening, when set gill nets fish, very soon after that there will not be any kings around.

WRO
116
Points
WRO 07/27/13 - 07:23 am
2
0
share the responsibility

Kenai 123,

the sportsfishermen don't fish in August either, the ESSNs kill a ton of kings both reported and UN reported, but so do we as sportsfishermen. I wish the river would go c&r only until a revised bottom end (higher)' is met. then start allowing some harvest from eagle rock down with a bubble at beaver creek to protect those fish the spawn there. the current system is flawed in favour of harvest instead of conservation. Reading other comments on this issue, the only thing I read is mine mine mine and it's all the other guys fault.. that won't solve the issue or preserve the run.

kenai123
1312
Points
kenai123 07/27/13 - 08:21 am
1
0
Who is really interested in conserving or restoring king salmon?

WRO, I agree, it is all about me, me, me. Our current salmon management in Cook Inlet is basically only affected by politics at the state and federal levels and not fisheries biology or conservation. Just look at our fisheries associations statewide, they are basically (user group associations). None of these groups are mainly interested in conserving or restoring king salmon, they are mainly interested in promoting a fisheries agenda in order to allow themselves to harvest something. This is the same type of (produce it / harvest it) agenda commercial fisheries promote and we all know where that led to back in 1959. Our fisheries user groups should be more into conserving and restoring king runs for sake of the run, regardless of the harvest.
This (produce / harvest connection) has taken our king stocks to their knees as everyone is out there chasing something until that something is no longer able to meet their harvest expectations. Then they move onto another job or location to do the same somewhere else.

We need fisheries organizations which focus on fish restoration for the fish, not the potential harvest. We need fisheries organizations which focus on commercial fishing with regard to how their gear types may affect king salmon runs, not their potential sockeye harvest. We currently only have fisheries organizations which focus on the potential harvest or allocation they may receive. This season is a lost cause because of this on going harvest / allocation focus, as was last season but we may be able to affect our future seasons. Fisheries organizations which promote themselves harvesting more fish are just fisheries businesses and are part of the problem.

Beach Boss
124
Points
Beach Boss 07/27/13 - 12:29 pm
1
1
What a coincidence

Let me get this straight ADF&G is closing the river for 3 days. That probably has a savings of 10 fish (if you believe that C&R mortality study). Then on Aug 1st opens the river back up to bait for silvers. Which they will be back trolling and slaughtering the kings.

If this isn't the biggest political move all season. I am sure it helped having BOF Mr. Johnstone down here flying the river with KRSA.

Sure its those dirty commercial fisherman that are making the decisions in ADF&G.

K123 what are you talking about taking stocks to its knees. If I am not mistaken the sockeye runs have been some of the largest in decades. You know the runs those dirty commercial fisherman actually fish. Weird they are doing so well. But the sports "priority" fish (kings and silvers) are struggling. But I know your answer to all of it is those damn setnetters. I find it funny that all the setnetters have lost is time and more time but yet the problem is getting worse and worse. I think it is safe to say we are not the problem. How about you shed light on the early run problems. ESSN haven't fished that run for YEARS!!!

kenai123
1312
Points
kenai123 07/27/13 - 03:50 pm
0
0
Beach Boss you have not been listening.

I post what happened to our first king run over and over and then set netters just say WHAT? Would you post that info. again... here is the re post.

You want to know what happened to the early run of kings? Lower Cook Inlet and Kodiak commercial fisheries guard the front door to all of our Cook Inlet fisheries. In 1980 lower Cook Inlet / Kodiak commercial fisheries harvested approximately a 1- 2 thousand king salmon annually. If you don't believe it call Kodiak ADF&G and learn something.
By 1990 these same commercial fisheries increased that king BYCATCH to 10 - 20 thousand kings annually. By 2000 these fisheries ramped this impact up to 80,000 kings annually. We really don't know what the real numbers are today because once Kodiak got wind that people had started looking over their shoulders, they began under reporting. Can anyone guess when this commercial fishery begins each year? They begin around the first and second weeks of June. THESE ARE ALL FIRST RUN KINGS. Call your local ADF&G, 262 9368, they won't have the Kodiak data but you can request that they contact Kodiak and get it.

Our kings will return, we just have to give them another 20 to 30 years. If we depend on nature and the ADF&G to fix our king problems it will take 20 - 30 years, maybe 5 - 10 years if we stopped commercial fishing statewide right now. Our herring and crab production needs to be restored first.
Closing commercial fisheries on these stocks needs to happen first. Then all commercial salmon set net fisheries need to be severely restricted or even closed to allow time for our runs to rebuild. If we closed all commercial fisheries for 5 - 10 years, our kings would likely rebound. Left to natural reproduction we are looking at 30 years worth of on/off fisheries restrictions before we can even hope to see our king runs rebound.

cormit
226
Points
cormit 07/28/13 - 10:02 am
2
0
to kenai123

kenai123 ........

One of these days you might think about parking that keyboard for awhile and spend a little time trying to learn something. It's obvious that you think you are an expert on pretty much everything ..... and there are pages and pages of your worthless drivel in every discussion here.

"The ADF&G knows that king mortality from angler H&R is so low that it is meaningless " ...

What a dumb thing to say ..... and you have nothing at all to base it on. You simply made it up.

In the Pacific northwest .... the mortality rate on hooked and released kings in fresh water is agreed on by both sport fish and com fish at 25%. While ADF&G still uses 10% ..... the science behind that is questionable at best. There are new studies happening right now that will likely show mortality as well as impaired spawning success related to hooking and releasing fresh water caught king salmon .... at a much higher rate than previously thought.

With king runs as low as they are ....... hook and release is indefensible. We're not talking about accidentally catching a king and letting it go ........ we're talking about catching a king ...... knowing we're going to release it .... and knowing that some unknown number will die from the stress.

That the general public tolerates this abuse of this resource is unbelievable.

KenaiKardinal88
467
Points
KenaiKardinal88 07/28/13 - 12:54 pm
0
2
In Summary

Commercial fishers slaughtered the king run for the second year in a row. ADF&G notorious bias in favor of commercial fishing is to blame.

The average Alaskan who sport fishes is on track for historically low king and red salmon catches, while the set netters and drifters got stinking rich this year.

Oh yeah, what about all those salmon who will never make it to the northern district?

Read Cod Wars - it explains how commercial fishing interests can destroy a resource through pure greed and stupidity - the same is happening with Cook Inlet salmon.

WRO
116
Points
WRO 07/28/13 - 07:48 pm
0
0
h and release numbers?

Cormit,

I have no idea where you got your numbers from, but both the study done on the Kenai and the studies done in Oregon on king salmon both correlate to the 10% assigned number, with actual numbers with single hook and no bait being significantly lower. both studies monitored released salmon all the way to their spawning grounds, that being said, the Kenai couldn't afford to lose any spawners this year.

one thing I don't understand is why Jack's are counted in the total run, in other salmon fisheries Jack's are not counted towards the adult return because they typically add very little to the total fecundity of the population. Of the 9k fish so far, 3000 of them were under 30" which does not bode well for the future.

kenai123
1312
Points
kenai123 07/29/13 - 09:04 pm
1
0
KenaiKardinal88, I agree 100%

KenaiKardinal88, I agree 100%
If our commercial fishermen would just spend their winters reading what caused most of our fisheries to collapse worldwide, they would be expecting the same collapse in Cook Inlet. Instead of reading Cod Wars or King Wars or Fish Wars they spend their winters Island hopping and thinking about other things.

It is a fact of life that you cannot kill off the bulk of any thing in Cook Inlet with gill nets and expect to have a healthy fishery down the line. Try thinking for just a basic second, if you had only ten sockeyes and two kings in all of Cook Inlet and you took an 80% commercial gill net swipe, thus killing eight sockeyes and one king, what are you left with? The remaining two sockeye may allow them to survive but the kings will be destroyed. This is what is happening in Cook Inlet only it is being done slowly and by the millions of fish. The end result will eventually be the same, it is just a matter of time.

kenai123
1312
Points
kenai123 07/31/13 - 09:45 am
1
1
Planting a zillion sockeye's is upsetting natural stock ratios.

Hatching up millions of sockeye salmon and dumping them into the ocean may seem like a good idea but has anyone really sat down and figured out what all those extra mouths are suppose to eat? Our ADF&G projected 6 -7 million sockeye returning to Cook Inlet this year with a commercial gill net harvest of 4.9 million. Has anyone even asked how many sockeye nature would normally have run in Upper Cook Inlet this year without the help of the ADF&G? A whole lot of these sockeye are returning because our ADF&G hatched those sockeye eggs out and dumped them into the ocean. Has anyone calculated just what all those extra mouths are supposed to eat? Some may say that it does not matter but I have news for you, those sockeyes eat the same things our jack kings are trying to eat. Both sockeye's and jack kings feed largely on crab larvae, only the sockeye's eat them when they are a quarter inch long and jack kings eat them after they are about a half inch long. All these extra sockeye are consuming most of our crab larvae before it can reach the half inch stage where a jack king can locate it. Our scientists are now telling us that 98% of our half inch or larger crab larvae have gone missing in the ocean. This should alarm even the non-fishing public to no end but do you hear anything about it?

If a king does manage to survive the above (ADF&G starvation package), they can then attempt to dodge the (federal trawlers by-catch package) as the trawlers will kill and dump 4 kings for each ton of pollock they catch.

http://www.fishtactics.com/ViewThread?threadID=2441

The annual trawler pollock catch being around 65,700 mt, you do the math.

https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2012/01/05/2011-33849/fisheries...

4 kings times 65,700 mt of pollock annually equals 262,800 dead by-catch kings ANNUALLY

All the extra ADF&G sockeye's will then causes lots of extra commercial gill netting time, so if a jack king does somehow manage to NOT starve to death, it will either be trawler by-catch or gill net by-catch eventually. Gee I wonder why we aren't seeing very many kings... This is a triple barrel wipe-out effect; if a king isn't killed by (ADF&G sockeye over stocking "prey starvation"), it gets killed by the trawlers, if it somehow manages to dodge both of those killers the extra sockeyes force extra heavy ADF&G gill netting, which basically kills off any escaping kings thus leaving nothing to enter the rivers to spawn. While the Fed and ADF&G are preforming all this fisheries destruction to our kings they are at the same time wondering where all our kings have gone...

The ADF&G needs to be forced to stop selective stock enhancements. If they want to enhance Cook Inlet they should be forced to enhance at the natural wild stock ratios. It is absolute insanity to be stocking our waters at artificial ratios. This is upsetting our natural wild ratio balance and therefore harming our king salmon. The ADF&G needs to stop selective artificial ratio enhancements and stock only to natural wild ratios. If the ADF&G
stopped the artificial enhancements then they would not feel compelled to dump on all that extra gill net fishing time which is by-catching a lot of our kings.

Stop the artificial ratio sockeye enhancement, stop the extra sockeye gill netting and resulting king by-catch, stop the trawler king by-catch, do all that and our kings might stand a chance.

kenai123
1312
Points
kenai123 07/29/13 - 09:55 pm
1
0
cormit

Cormit, regarding your request for me parking the key board. For your information I have contracted with two individuals to begin immediately posting under my name if I should for some reason be unable to continue educating commercial fishermen like yourself. Me "parking my keyboard" would just give you two more persons to attack.

Regarding me learning "something". My fingernail clippings have more fisheries knowledge than you have displayed on these posts.

Regarding me considering myself an expert on "everything".
I've never claimed to be better than anyone but it appears that you personally believe that I am.

Regarding your accusations of my information being "worthless and drivel", I require your actual accusal quotes, you know, the ones which you failed to post. Because you failed to post your accusal quotes, your accusation is in fact "worth nothing".

Regarding your name calling and claim that "H&R is meaningful and not meaningless". This is where your lack of fisheries education really shines. Please get on the internet, find a search engine, read the H&R studies, millions of dollars has been spent studying H&R and they all say the same thing, 5 - 10% max. impact.

Regarding your claim that "new studies happening right now that will likely show mortality as well as impaired spawning success related to H&R." Are you serious? You are saying that you 'just know' that there is a new study out there somewhere which is going to guarantee to prove all the other million dollar studies wrong? Wow..... I thought you might be a little messed up but you really need to educate yourself on how studies are suppose to be conducted.

The reality is that H&R is meaningless when you consider that around 80% of our possible returning kings are being killed by someone trying to kill another fish. Cormit you are straining at the nat and swallowing the camel.

Regarding your claim that "the public tolerates fisheries abuse". The public is not tolerating our state sponsored fisheries abuse, they have no idea that the abuse is happening. They have better things to do than read all those studies. Apparently so do you as you are just waiting for that big study to come out and prove all of your points. What is worse not reading our current studies or not believing them? The end result is the same, pure fisheries ignorance.

The public finds out about the fisheries abuse decades after it happens thus they will no doubt wake up about ten years from now, thus the fishery recovering about 15 years after that. It is unbelievable that you are just seeing this abuse now, I have been trying to stop the abuse since 1980, when did you start?

beaverlooper
2931
Points
beaverlooper 07/31/13 - 01:47 pm
0
0
123

"Cormit, regarding your request for me parking the key board. For your information I have contracted with two individuals to begin immediately posting under my name if I should for some reason be unable to continue educating commercial fishermen like yourself."
Maybe I'll start posting under your name. Your tone sure would change .
Maybe we should start a 123 club and get 15 or 20 people posting under your name.

kenai123
1312
Points
kenai123 08/03/13 - 09:52 am
1
1
beaverlooper

What a marvelous and innovative idea beaverlooper! Let's see how beaverlooper will accomplish this great and wonderful posting under the name kenai123. Humm... Well first he will have to sign on using the kenai123 name, then he will need to somehow guess the kenai123 password. Randomly guessing possible passwords should take beaverlooper about a decade or two to come up with the right combination... but good news beaverlooper! That is just about when our salmon fisheries should be recovering from all of beaverloopers non-sustainable, set gill net, commercial over fishing!

Well enough with the mind numbing meaningless chatter.
So where do you think all of our kings have gone? No idea like most folk? Well good news again! Here's where they all went.

I have been involved with our Alaska fisheries since 1980 and have watched many of our state king salmon runs go from feast to famine during that time.
The ADF&G currently claims that our current king salmon famine is due to natural factors stemming from low ocean food web production. In the first place even if this assumption were true I do not assume it to be the only reason we are seeing our current king losses statewide. We currently may have ocean factors involved within our king shortage but our ADF&G and commercial fisheries are also making such large scale changes within our ocean that they are also certainly involved. Currently our ADF&G is hatching up millions of sockeye salmon and dumping them into Alaskan rivers and streams each year and many people believe this to be a good idea. Have you really personally sat down and calculated what all those sockeye extra mouths are suppose to eat while at sea? Our ADF&G projected 6 - 7 million sockeye salmon returning to Cook Inlet in 2013, with a commercial gill net harvest of 4.9 million. Have you even asked how many sockeye nature would normally have run in Upper Cook Inlet this year without the help of the ADF&G? Has anyone at the ADF&G calculated just what all those extra mouths are supposed to eat? Some may say that it does not matter but I am telling you that those sockeyes eat the same things our jack king salmon are trying to eat. Both sockeye and jack king salmon feed largely on crab larvae, only the sockeye's eat them when they are younger at a quarter inch in length. Jack kings eat these same larvae after they are older and at about a half inch in length.
New scientific data is just now coming out which is showing that these extra sockeye are consuming most of our crab larvae before it can reach the half inch stage where a jack king salmon can locate it. Our scientists are now telling us that 98% of our half inch or larger crab larvae have gone missing in the ocean. This should alarm even the non-fishing public but we are currently hearing nothing about this recent event. I am asking you if you have heard or seen this information? The above ocean reduction of crab larvae is alarming but our ADF&G not knowing about these changes is even more alarming. Even if we assume a low natural ocean production of kings you must ask yourself why are we funding ADF&G sockeye hatchery programs which will actually upset our ocean webs even further by attempting to artificially expand one salmon beyond another? I am claiming that this artificial ADF&G stock manipulation factor is resulting in additional reasons for our kings to not have sufficient ocean food to allow them to complete their migration cycles. This ADF&G sockeye enhancement is resulting in a (state sponsored king salmon starvation package). All the extra ADF&G sockeye's will then causes lots of extra commercial gill netting time, so if a jack king does somehow manage to NOT starve to death, it will then end up being harvested by all the necessary sockeye commercial gill net fishing.

On top of this (ADF&G sponsored starvation and extra gill netting), our king salmon must also attempt to dodge our federal Pollock trawlers. These trawlers will kill and dump 4 kings for each ton of pollock. Since these trawlers appear to harvest around 65 million tons of pollock each year that calculates to be about 4 kings X 65,700 mt of pollock annually = 262,800 dead by-catch kings ANNUALLY. A quarter million dead and dumped adult king salmon "each year" can add up over time and become a huge reason why we are not seeing our king salmon returning to their home rivers and streams.

This is a triple barrel wipe out effect; if a king isn't killed by (ADF&G sockeye over stocking), it gets killed by (the pollock trawlers), if it somehow manages to dodge both of those killers the extra sockeyes force extra heavy gill netting on returning sockeye, which basically also kills off any escaping kings, thus leaving few kings to enter freshwater river to spawn. The ADF&G needs to stop selective sockeye enhancements. If they want to enhance they should be required to enhance to natural stock ratios.

It is absolute insanity to be stocking our waters to artificial salmon ratios. These ADF&G sockeye enhancement projects and programs are upsetting our natural salmon ratio balances and therefore in general harming our king salmon runs. I request that the Alaska ADF&G fund a study (with some of that legislature 30 million dollars to study our king salmon) to examine the dramatic effects of state sponsored over-enhancement of sockeye salmon. If funded, I suspect that this study would confirm dramatic new information on how this sockeye inflation can negatively effect our king salmon as they attempt to compete for prey while at sea.

beaverlooper
2931
Points
beaverlooper 08/04/13 - 01:32 pm
0
0
it might not be as hard as you think.

It might not be as hard as you think. $100 or $200 might go a long way with the minimum wage workers at the clarion.
I bet the clarions computer system doesn't have quite the security level as a bank and they get hacked all of the time.
Not everyone is as stupid as you.

19581958
77
Points
19581958 08/06/13 - 04:03 pm
0
0
Problems Started With Harry Gaines/Davito

Never had a problem with King Runs untill the first few guides started advertising the Kenai River. This is a fact that the first guides to figure out how to catch the Kings want to keep secret. They made millions and still are. I never hear from them on this subject, I wonder why? Come on guys whats your opinion? Maybe they have passed on. Not sure, but I'm sure there is a relative that can comment on this important subject.

19581958
77
Points
19581958 08/06/13 - 06:12 pm
0
0
Another Good "Write Off" For The North Slope Kenai River Guides

Those North Slope Two Week On/Two Week Off guys that guide the river during their six week vacation will write off the taxes they pay on their $150,000 a year plus BP salaries. Not a big buisness loss to them. I guess that kind of Day Job Income isn't enough to give the Kings a chance to survive. Is this a good example of Greed?

Sam Von Pufendorf
1088
Points
Sam Von Pufendorf 08/06/13 - 09:37 pm
0
0
19581958

And there aren't north slope 2X2 drifters and set netters?
As for Harry Gaines, he passed on no less than 10 years ago. Spence Divito, I'm not sure of his where abouts.

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