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There’s a reason for the 2nd Amendment

Posted: May 29, 2012 - 8:15am

Many of you keep weapons and have planned your response if a crack-high zombie goon, a murderous bear, or a thief threatens. Your threat to retaliate, having the means to do so provides safety, at least from those who are smart enough to know you will shoot. Even radio ads here in Alaska warn that homeowners are armed. The threat alone keeps the bad guys at bay.

But why are some people wrong to be just as afraid of agents from a government who they perceive are coming for them, their property or their children? "That's irrational fear," you say, but consider America in the 1770s when guns and the threat of using them stood alone against the tyrannical Crown government; and, when on April 19, 1775, a demonstration of that determination was witnessed for all the world to see and ponder. In different times and places in history, the gun symbolized the unspoken understanding that "if you aggress against me, you will die." For that very reason, the Gadsden Flag is emblazoned with a rattle snake rather than a lamb.

We can debate what a genuine threat might be, but does it matter? Shall we say there is no need to fear, regardless of the nature of the threat? Or, shall we just hope that someone else will stop the goons, bears, thieves, mad dogs, or even agents of a tyrannical government bent on destroying our life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness? Shall we try to negotiate with a marauding bear or a mad dog? I reckon not!

It appears that the central government would have us disarmed if they could, thinking it would promote its continuing consolidation of power. Barring that, the central government doesn't want us talking about defending ourselves against it. The Founding Fathers did more than talk. They declared that natural law requires free people bear arms to defend themselves and to organize themselves, logically to make the necessary plans to do so. If the Founders had no concern the federal government could grow tyrannical there would have been no reason to make the 2nd Amendment imperative. You may say that the central government cannot stop you from planning or thinking how to defend yourself against it, but they need not do that. All that is necessary is to convince you that their agents are no threat at all and that they are really there to help you.

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normolson
393
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normolson 05/31/12 - 05:58 pm
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Wanna Go 66 Rounds?

Carver, You commented, "Moreover, their world will always and unavoidably appeal to some few. The best that can be hoped for is to try to show their point of view for what it is—a self-imposed, simplistic, and unrealistic view of life. Any "gospel" that can pervert Christ's command to love one's neighbor into an excuse for hate and holy war needs to be shown for what it is."

You're rambling a bit here, but if you want to debate the Christian's responsibility in society, I'd be glad to go the distance with you. You are correct in your statement about perverting the Gospel. People often hide behind the robes of religiousity while dictating to others what is right or wrong from their own human standpoint, but to create what might be a "false witness" against me or Ray is just plain wrong.
We hear from a thing called Norseman all the time. It fabricates false witness constantly. Please don't fall into it's pattern. It's of the devil, filled with lies and deceit and the perversion of truth. It seeks to harm and destroy. It offers no light, but only the darkness of hatefulness and discord.
If you have questions, please ask. If you want to discuss or debate Scripture, please do, but please keep it pertinent to the question of why so many people are frightened by their own government. Afterall, that was the thread I was trying to focus on from the getgo. There can be no doubt that people are frightened of many things. Ray and I have been in the militia business for nearly 20 years. You can google us if you want to see where we've come from. What isn't often written about are the "encounter group" sessions we have with people who are on the edge and ready to do something that will endanger others or destroy themselves. We have met with countless people who have come to us to join us, thinking that we were ready to seek retribution against tyrannical government agents only to find out that we promote a far different method of drawing them back from the edge.
Since I am a pastor and have pastored for 25 years and Ray has been a faithful deacon to the church, (google: norm olson freedom church) it has been our effort to save people from doing something really stupid and to assist them in finding the strength and courage to set their course through difficult waters. We will never tell someone they have nothing to be frightened of, but rather we quantify, qualify, and measure in recentcy and proximity what that fear is and whether it is real or imagined. Often, just talking with others has helped to bring people back from the edge. Our objective is to make people stronger and more courageous in the face of what frightens them.
If you've done your homework on myself or Ray, you'll see that we have helped far more people than has the federal government, and unlike the central government, we have caused noone to commit suicide from hopelessness and dispare.
But I would urge you to do your own research and resist the false witness and tale bearing that is so frequently used.
I will stand behind my words, even the errors, but you must try to understand that I have many who care nothing about the truth and attack constanty with lies and distortion.
So, what shall it be? Maybe we can talk about imprecatory prayer or spiritual warfare.

Carver
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Carver 05/31/12 - 06:29 pm
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Been there, done that . . to no avail . . .

"If you have questions, please ask. . ."
******************

I have asked you questions, Norm, five times, and you have yet to answer. This time is number six:

"What liberties have you had threatened and destroyed? How has your pursuit of happiness been hindered by 'agents of a tyrannical government'?"

Only if and when you answer the questions I've already asked will I consider asking more. Why would I? My questions to you have been a waste of time so far. From where I sit, you're not interested in intelligent dialog, only in steering the discussion into an excuse for another narcissistic diatribe in defense of your apocalypse-now, messianic-complex worldview.

Raoulduke
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Raoulduke 05/31/12 - 07:16 pm
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liberties

Does anyone remember the Patriot Act.Anyone can be confined ,and held without any cause.Another great thought through Republican initiative. The knee jerk reaction was thought to be a good thing at the time.How are you feeling now?

Raoulduke
3055
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Raoulduke 05/31/12 - 07:29 pm
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pastor

Does a pastor have to be ordained,or can that person just be a self proclaimed pastor?I really do no know.I would think a person should have some form of formal Theological training for the mentoring,and guidance given to the flock.

RaySouthwell
953
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RaySouthwell 05/31/12 - 10:00 pm
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Carver

Hate? I am motivated by love. My grandfather once told me when you leave this world, leave it better than you found it. So I try.

Norseman
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Norseman 06/01/12 - 07:07 am
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Cox

The Fairbanks militia and it's members are on the front page of the Anchorage daily news this am.

The militia trial has been going on now for over a week and half and nary a peep out of the Kenai chapter. Amazing how quiet the militia get when one of their chapters gets arrested.
They will rant and rave weekly on a host of issues but are tongue tied when it comes to speaking out on behalf of fellow militia members. Perhaps cox has proven to be a huge embarrassment to the militia movement. He sure has proven how "deadly" their intentions can be towards law abiding Americans.

My grandparents and parents taught us at a young age that part of your reputation was with who you hung around with. If you hang out with the wrong crowd, then accept the consequences.

Lay with the dogs, catch the fleas.

Carver
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Carver 06/01/12 - 07:18 am
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To whom is the "pastor" responsible?

"Does a pastor have to be ordained,or can that person just be a self proclaimed pastor?I really do no know.I would think a person should have some form of formal Theological training for the mentoring,and guidance given to the flock."
******************

Basically, anyone can call themselves a pastor . . the title itself is meaningless. To BE a pastor, all one needs is some sort of "message" and a few people to listen and believe. Men like David Koresh and Jim Jones are examples of "pastors" far outside the traditions and authority of established religions. Such "pastors" use the vocabulary of religion but distort the message for their own aggrandizement and purposes.

When considering someone's claim to be a "pastor," the first question to be asked is by whom were they ordained, and, most importantly, TO WHOM IS THE PASTOR RESPONSIBLE.

The three great divisions of Christianity—Roman Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodoxy—all confess the great ecumenical creeds of the early Church, and all have long-established bodies of tradition, dogma, and authority to which their pastors and priests are responsible. By these means Christian tradition and doctrine are preserved over the centuries and heresies and novelties excluded.

Thus, when considering a person's claim to be a pastor, the first question to be asked is, "To whom is the pastor responsible for his ordination and for the doctrines he teaches?" If a "pastor" is not answerable to established denominational authority, he is thus free to preach and promote his own personal vision to the misleading of his hearers.

David Koresh and Jim Jones were well-known, well-publicized examples of "pastors" operating out from under authority.

Beware . . .

RaySouthwell
953
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RaySouthwell 06/01/12 - 08:22 am
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Carver

I think you forgot to mention Martin Luther along with Jones and Koresh. I am sure, at the time, the Catholic Church saw him as a cult leader. I believe the government called him an outlaw.

I have Christian friends like you. Knowledgeable about the Bible.

They ignore the abuse of government because “God is in control.”

As a friend once told me. Some Christians are so heavenly minded they are of no earthly good.

For the record, I believe Schaeffer Cox is innocent and continue to support him.

Carver
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Carver 06/01/12 - 09:17 am
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Poor choice of an example, Ray . . .

No, Ray, what you forget to mention when using Martin Luther as an example is that Luther was an Augustinian monk, a professor of theology, able to read Greek, Latin, and Hebrew with decades of academic training behind him when he attempted to reform the Western Church of his day. In fact, the entire ecclesiastical hierarchy of the time was so corrupt that it is said that the very second Luther nailed his 95 Theses to the church door at Wittenberg, one-third of Europe became Lutheran. More has been written about Martin Luther than any man in human history except Jesus Christ.

Moreover, Luther was himself part of a much greater reforming tradition, beginning with Wycliffe over a hundred years before, on through men like Hus and Tyndale before culminating in Luther's excommunication and the wide-scale eruption of the Reformation across all of Europe. And, no, the established Church of Luther's day did not consider him a "cult" leader, they considered Luther a wayward monk needing to recant erroneous doctrine.

The civil government of the time, Frederick III, Elector of Saxony, protected Luther.

Luther was no Jim Jones and no David Koresh. Luther did not come out of the woodwork somewhere spouting strange doctrines of hate and guns and rebellion.

The question remains: To whom are so-called pastors responsible and accountable? Jim Jones and David Koresh were responsible to no one and nothing except their own private, distorted versions of reality.

Norseman
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Norseman 06/01/12 - 02:58 pm
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...and so endeth the

...and so endeth the lesson......

Carver, you have a gift when it comes to writing. I am sure a hard earned one at that.

I was intrigued when spw asked what it took to become a pastor.

The few minutes I looked into, I realized that some spend quite a bit of time studying in colleges, while others can obtain them online with a few simple clicks of the mouse.

What is scary is that there are sheeple out there that will follow whackjobs like Jones, Koresh, etc. They drink the koolaid, no questions asked.

This is the type of individual that the militia looks to recruit. Then, sooner or later, someone decides it is time to kill and we have more needless tragedies.

History will show who was on the right side, and who was on the wrong side. My money is on the true American patriots and those who serve to protect our country.

Carver
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Carver 06/01/12 - 04:36 pm
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For the record, Ray . . .

I have Christian friends like you. Knowledgeable about the Bible. They ignore the abuse of government because “God is in control.”
***********

You don't know whether you have any friends like me, Ray, because you haven't a clue as to what I believe about governmental abuse, and you don't know what I believe because you haven't asked. You've presumed to know what I think.

Don't talk down to folks . . it's bad form, it's rude, and only makes your case weaker than it already is.

spwright
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spwright 06/01/12 - 04:36 pm
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Norseman 6/1/12

Just a minor correction here. I did not ask anything about being a Pastor. But I remember very very well the Jones Town Poisoned Cool-Aid & to be Honest that event still sends cold chills down my back.

& yes it do think that these Militia types would serve a much more useful purpose as E O D Techs in Afghanistan & actually SAVE American Lives instead of rotting away in a Prison Cell when they are Convicted.

Was just informed that my next door Neighbor,s SON
has just arrived "In-Country" in Afghanistan.
Alaska Air National Guard from Elemendorf AFB in ANC.
I watched a news clip of a C-17 taking off from ANC a few days ago. Little did I know, My Neighbor's SON was On-Board that Aircraft. "DeJaVoo" Happening here.
May God Keep Them SAFE behind the wire.

SPW "Airborne"

Carver
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Carver 06/01/12 - 04:52 pm
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Amen . . .

"May God Keep Them SAFE behind the wire."
***************

Amen . . . !

RaySouthwell
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RaySouthwell 06/02/12 - 06:08 am
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Carver

On the 31st you stated

“Wrongful convictions? Wall Street greed? Who knew?”

Acceptable behavior from government? Not news to you and acceptable ?

Yesterday you stated

“You don't know whether you have any friends like me, Ray, because you haven't a clue as to what I believe about governmental abuse, and you don't know what I believe because you haven't asked. You've presumed to know what I think.”

I believe we have has this discussion on you faith system-Calvinism. God has ordained all things and man has no control or say in the outcome. So, just sit back and accept governments behavior as Gods will.

So, if your highly educated then your doctrine is sound. How much education did Jesus have? I believe the majority saw him as a cult leader, back in the day.

Martin Luther had supporters and hindsight is always 20/20. The fact is, he was excommunicated from the Catholic Church and the government did call him an outlaw.

Speaking your words “strange doctrines”, how about LDS founder Joseph Smith. What was his education? I am sure you would have joined the ranks of haters towards his doctrine, back in his day.

Speaking of haters, do you believe I am a hater or lover? Perhaps you see my anger as hate. My anger is based on love.

RaySouthwell
953
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RaySouthwell 06/02/12 - 06:18 am
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Mr. Wright

You state

“May God keep them SAFE, behind the wire.”

What are you doing to actually bring our troops home.

Asking God to do the work. What are you doing, to bring home our military from this deadly, costly war?

Carver
1118
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Carver 06/02/12 - 10:37 am
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An ignorant rant . . .

". . you faith system-Calvinism. God has ordained all things and man has no control or say in the outcome. . ."

". . and the government did call [Martin Luther] an outlaw."
****************

Ray, I'm not going to argue with you . . your mind is made up, and I am not interested in trying to change it.

I will, however, point out your misrepresentation of the truth lest you lead others astray with your ignorance.

First, I do not believe nor have I ever said nor do the historic Reformed confessions such as the Westminster Confession of Faith (1647), The Augsburg Confession (1530), or the Belgic Confession (1618) say or imply any such thing as you falsely assert in your first quote above. You are guilty of false witness, and I suggest you do some serious homework before making such foolish and uneducated accusations.

Second, Luther was not considered an "outlaw" in his own country or in any region or nation that embraced the Protestant Reformation but was in fact protected and supported by the civil authorities. The only places Luther was considered outlaw were in those regions that remained Roman Catholic.

Once more, do not put words in my mouth. If you want to know what I think, just ask. Your presumption is rude and abusive beyond measure and only serves to make you and your position look stupid. You discredit yourself. Shame on you.

kksalm
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kksalm 06/02/12 - 07:55 am
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Speaking of Jonestown and drinking koolaid

FYI
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/Jonestown.html#ALJR
Complete with footnotes. I already know who's going to say it's all a conspiracy and who won't.
It's provoking and a good read nonetheless.
Have a wonderful day!

RaySouthwell
953
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RaySouthwell 06/02/12 - 08:15 am
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Carver

Looking at your written dialog on this blog/thread, I thought you were an individual by the name John N. He is a smart man. I have had written and verbal discussion with him and it appears you are the same man.

If not, I apologize for my assumption.

Martin Luther-where I found the “outlaw” statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther

Carver
1118
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Carver 06/02/12 - 08:55 am
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Rude and offensive!

"I thought you were an individual by the name John N. . . it appears you are the same man. If not, I apologize for my assumption."
******************

You are rude beyond belief to publicly speculate about my identity!

normolson
393
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normolson 06/02/12 - 01:24 pm
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You ask the wrong question

Carver, you have asked, "What liberties have you had threatened and destroyed? How has your pursuit of happiness been hindered by 'agents of a tyrannical government'?"
I personnally have lost none. That answer should bother you since it must beg the question, "if you have lost no liberties what then motivates your actions?"
You'll have to couch that particular question in the Scriptural mandate to stand against injustice, corruption, tyranny, and the evil that manifests itself in a power hungry central government.
"Ah," you say, "the Bible doesn't tell us to fight against a government, no matter how cruel it is." But that then opens a whole field of theological matter that must be examined. For example, "why did John the Baptist lose his head and what did he say to the monarch who reigned over him?"
and, can you explain 2 Sam 23:3 in light of Romans 13? And, why didn't the Christians comply with orders to be silent and to obey the Roman government? and just was is meant by "praying for them that have rule over you?" Are you sure you know the context of that exhortation?

Oh, we can delve into many areas of Scripture if you'd like, but I'm afraid you'll run out of fuel before too long. I'm afraid that you, sir, are like so many other religious people who believe that the Bible teaches us to be passive toward evil and to be totally submissive before a government that has disobeyed the divine mandate of 2 Sam 23:3.

Again, if you think that I seek retaliation for what has happened to me, you are absolutely wrong. As I have said, this isn't about me or what the big bad government has done to me. You'll have to try to decide then, just what is it that drives me to stand up for and beside those who have been wronged or those who suffer.

normolson
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normolson 06/02/12 - 01:32 pm
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What does it take to be a Pastor?

First of all, "if you can find something to do other than being a pastor, do that instead." That's a simple way of saying that if you don't have the fire in you bones as did Jeremiah the Prophet to stand up and tell the truth, then you'll never be sure what you are doing or why. Jeremiah tried to run from the Lord, but he had to deal with the passion inside to preach the truth to a wicked and tyrannical government and its phony preachers who were as corrupted as could be.
But to answer you question, you can be ordained by a seminary (which I often refer to as cemeteries), or you can be commissioned and "licensed" by a local church, or you can just start preaching.
I was licensed and approved by a large church many years ago, but again I remind you that a piece of paper doesn't make you a pastor, and, for that matter, I would say that every man who has the courage to preach the truth IS A PASTOR to some group, whether it be in his home, his workplace, or a church building.

Carver
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Carver 06/02/12 - 02:01 pm
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It's all about me, me, me . . . .

Carver, you have asked, "What liberties have you had threatened and destroyed? How has your pursuit of happiness been hindered by 'agents of a tyrannical government'?" I personnally have lost none. . .

"Ah," you say, . . ."

"Oh, we can delve into many areas of Scripture if you'd like, but I'm afraid you'll run out of fuel before too long. I'm afraid that you, sir, are like so many other religious people . ."
************

Well, thanks . . at last you answered, and, as I suspected all along, our so-called, tyrannical government has not hindered your pursuit of happiness at all.

Second, you have no idea what I say, and it is rudely presumptuous of you to think you do. Moreover, it is extremely boorish of you to denigrate and insult folks who believe differently than do you and your militia. Your diatribes reek of hubris and conceit. Are all our local preachers then "phony preachers" if they don't agree with you?

As for delving into Scripture with you, I wouldn't dream of it. You already have it all figured out, and, near as I can tell, your "interpretations" of scripture are far outside historic confessions of faith. Personally, I don't care what you believe. You have made your "gospel" of guns, fear, and hate perfectly plain to any who will listen.

II Peter 3:16 . . . ;-)

spwright
1376
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spwright 06/02/12 - 02:34 pm
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What am I Doing to End the War?

6/2/12 Well I'm trying to convince People to send all of You Militia types to Afghanistan after You are convicted.
You could walk in front of the Military Vehicles w/ a Mine Detector & SAVE American Lives.

Instead of rotting away in a prison cell & ranting about how your rights have been violated for eternity.

That will be a Useful Prison Sentense for Mr. Cox & His Merry Men after they are Convicted this month in Fairbanks.

This should make your blood pressure raise & bring about yet another rant from You & Norm ?

SPW "Airborne"

normolson
393
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normolson 06/02/12 - 04:38 pm
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BP is fine..

No blood pressure rise...no rant...no need to get up or nasty.

Nothing you or anyone else can say will surprise me or get my dander up. I've been through dozens of questioners and critics who have tried. If I can handle Arlen Specter and a host of other questioners from around the world without bombast I figure anyone else is just "poking the frog."

But for what reason do you jab?

This thread started over why people fear their government . That question has been avoided. I haven't heard anyone defend the IRS or the antics of federal agents to arrest without warrant, sieze without cause, imprison without writ or arraignment, and charge without evidence. Rather than an objective discussion about the abuses of power by the central government, you and others have a dandy time attacking me or Ray. Anyone skilled in the art of debate knows that when the other side beings to attack the messenger rather than the message, that they are unworthy of the engagement.
Are you concerned at all over the growing power of the central government? Many are and many have become frightened to the point where they are joining militia groups across the land in order to defend themselves. I will not tell them to be unafraid since many have lost everything but their fierce anger for the locusts who have consumed their lives, their business, their fortune, their dreams, and even their family.
Some laugh at those who have suffered at the hands of the "system." They say these people suffer from irrational fears without a basis. Tell them to be unafraid of the central government and they'll mark you as "one of them." How many other people in America are training and prepping to resist the central government?
Bottom line, there is no experiential evidence to feel safe and secure from the federal government.
More than 50 percent of Americans are extremely, very, or somewhat frightened of the federal government (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=129316321&page=1) Does that surprise you?
56% of all Americans say the federal government poses an immediate threat to individual rights and freedoms (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/02/26/cnn-poll-majority-says-government-a-threat-to-citizens-rights/)

Does any of this surprise you? Can you see why silencing dissent is the chief objective of the federal govenment nowadays?
The Founding Fathers warned of the danger and made sure that everyone knew they had the natural, God-given right to arm themselves and to form militia and to train so that they may remain free as the government condenses, consolidates, and centralizes it power.
The Schaeffer Cox trial is a wonderful thing because it has exposed the methods of the tyrants and has served as a warning to patriots across the land to be more wary and alert.
There will be other trials. With each one the patriots become stronger and bolder.
At the rate the federal government is going, I suspect that there will be another Mt. Carmel or Ruby Ridge event one of these days. These things must come to pass as long as we live in land where states' rights are ignored so that the enormous central government may reign supreme.

normolson
393
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normolson 06/02/12 - 04:50 pm
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Carver, You wrote: "Second,

Carver, You wrote: "Second, you have no idea what I say, and it is rudely presumptuous of you to think you do. Moreover, it is extremely boorish of you to denigrate and insult folks who believe differently than do you and your militia. Your diatribes reek of hubris and conceit. Are all our local preachers then "phony preachers" if they don't agree with you?"

Would you do the honorable thing and introduce yourself before we debate these matters? You know my name, my address is 49650 Island Lake Road. (you can find out about me, my home, my finances from the Borough website). I pastored the Calvary Baptist Church and the Freedom Church. My service record is public information.
Now, tell me about yourself.

As with the phantom of the keyboard, Norseman, you SEEM unwilling to sit across a level table. I hope that I am wrong. I would like to think that you have no fear of identifying yourself, where you live, where you attend services, etc.
You seem to accuse me of being less than respectful of you, and yet I don't know you at all. You are simply "Carver."
Which to me is nothing more than a pseudonym. How can I expect to be respected if you hide your identity?
I respect honor, intregity, honesty, and courage.

Carver
1118
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Carver 06/03/12 - 06:54 am
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More narcissistic malarkey . . .

"This thread started over why people fear their government . ."
***************

Nope . . this thread started over why YOU fear your government, Norm . . . don't try to speak for the rest of us . . you just end up looking more foolish than you already do.

As for debating you, Norm and/or Ray, not even interested. You guys are just looking for another soap-box from which to spew your distorted gospel of guns, fear, and hate.

BUT . . tell you what . . I will give you the address of an international forum on which I participate, no holds barred, where you can state your case. In the meantime, you'll just have to guess about my identity . . this ain't about people, this is about ideas, and I'm more leery of you militia types than I am of my government . . don't really care to have you know who I am. Hope you understand . . war lords and private armies scare me. Put away your guns and knives, take off the military garb . . . what's with this sinister "who are you" stuff? Is that some sort of implied threat?

So you and Ray let me know . . if you want to let it all hang out—and this ain't the place—let me know. I'll meet you on the international forum noted below. Anyone else here is invited as well . .

Here it is: http://www.onthenatureofthings.net/forum/index.php Register on that forum, and state your case. See you there?

Norseman
3361
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Norseman 06/02/12 - 07:41 pm
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..."The Schaeffer Cox trial

..."The Schaeffer Cox trial is a wonderful thing because it has exposed the methods of the tyrants and has served as a warning to patriots across the land to be more wary and alert.
*************************************************************

Wonderful thing? How warped can you get. The wifebeater cox is a domestic terrorist who was caught before he could kill innocent men and women.

That is what is wonderful. That our government is doing it's job in protecting innocent men, women, and children from total nutjobs that join militias.

Carver
1118
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Carver 06/03/12 - 06:52 am
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The militia-mindset . . .

To the "militia mindset," the government is evil, to be feared, poses a threat to patriots, is tyrannical, abusive of power, silences dissent, consolidates power, are locusts consuming our lives, arrests without warrant, seizes without writ, and a whole lot of other bad things. Real Americans experience a "fierce anger" at such goings-on and arm themselves in preparation to resist the monster that threatens our freedom.

What world does such a mentality inhabit? Millions upon millions of Americans go merrily about their daily lives in pursuit of happiness. People all over the world want to come to America for a better life.

The militia-mindset represents a total disconnect from the lives lived by everyone else. There are what, 50,000 or so militia-types in the country? That's .0004 percent of the population. Can the other 99.9996 percent of us be so stupid as to not recognize the terrible and immanent threat our government poses to us?

Bizarre, totally bizarre . . .

RaySouthwell
953
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RaySouthwell 06/03/12 - 08:37 am
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Carver

I am rude, not very smart and am a poor public speaker. I support my friends with fleas, warts, aids and any other imperfection they have. That is man’s fallen condition.

You stated-

“Basically, anyone can call themselves a pastor . . the title itself is meaningless. To BE a pastor, all one needs is some sort of "message" and a few people to listen and believe. Men like David Koresh and Jim Jones are examples of "pastors" far outside the traditions and authority of established religions. Such "pastors" use the vocabulary of religion but distort the message for their own aggrandizement and purposes.”

You ignore, debate of ideas, and attack the person.

You sir associated me and my friends with cult leaders. So I ask you, who is really hateful and rude?

Carver
1118
Points
Carver 06/03/12 - 12:58 pm
1
0
And on and on and on . . . .

"You ignore, debate of ideas, and attack the person. . ."
******************

Nope, not even close. If you want to debate ideas, you need to learn to recognize an idea. I did not name names, I spoke to an idea—that of so-called pastors operating out from under authority and used a couple examples of what can happen. You chose to take it personally. If the shoe fits, wear it, but don't blame me.

You want to debate ideas—with the gloves off? This ain't the place . . this is the comment section of a local, family newspaper. Besides, I am quite uncomfortable with you and Norm trying to guess my identity and asking me to reveal myself. Would much rather remain anonymous . . you understand of course.

Meet me here: http://www.onthenatureofthings.net/forum/index.php

Log in, and state your case. See you there . . .

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