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There’s a reason for the 2nd Amendment

Posted: May 29, 2012 - 8:15am

Many of you keep weapons and have planned your response if a crack-high zombie goon, a murderous bear, or a thief threatens. Your threat to retaliate, having the means to do so provides safety, at least from those who are smart enough to know you will shoot. Even radio ads here in Alaska warn that homeowners are armed. The threat alone keeps the bad guys at bay.

But why are some people wrong to be just as afraid of agents from a government who they perceive are coming for them, their property or their children? "That's irrational fear," you say, but consider America in the 1770s when guns and the threat of using them stood alone against the tyrannical Crown government; and, when on April 19, 1775, a demonstration of that determination was witnessed for all the world to see and ponder. In different times and places in history, the gun symbolized the unspoken understanding that "if you aggress against me, you will die." For that very reason, the Gadsden Flag is emblazoned with a rattle snake rather than a lamb.

We can debate what a genuine threat might be, but does it matter? Shall we say there is no need to fear, regardless of the nature of the threat? Or, shall we just hope that someone else will stop the goons, bears, thieves, mad dogs, or even agents of a tyrannical government bent on destroying our life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness? Shall we try to negotiate with a marauding bear or a mad dog? I reckon not!

It appears that the central government would have us disarmed if they could, thinking it would promote its continuing consolidation of power. Barring that, the central government doesn't want us talking about defending ourselves against it. The Founding Fathers did more than talk. They declared that natural law requires free people bear arms to defend themselves and to organize themselves, logically to make the necessary plans to do so. If the Founders had no concern the federal government could grow tyrannical there would have been no reason to make the 2nd Amendment imperative. You may say that the central government cannot stop you from planning or thinking how to defend yourself against it, but they need not do that. All that is necessary is to convince you that their agents are no threat at all and that they are really there to help you.

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Carver
1118
Points
Carver 06/09/12 - 05:10 am
2
1
Thanks . . .

Good post, Norseman, that puts it in perspective. It's all right there in the Commander's letter-to-the-editor.

Thanks . . .

Raoulduke
2889
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Raoulduke 06/09/12 - 06:14 am
1
0
militia definition

Thank you Norseman.There should be no misunderstanding of your post.There is not anything that can be read between the lines.You have stated it PLAIN,and CLEAR.Once again A very good posting.

Raoulduke
2889
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Raoulduke 06/09/12 - 06:19 am
2
1
numbers

I can only say that I am very glad that these militia are a minute percentage of the population.They are folks who really need to seek the help of health care for the mind professionals.

Carver
1118
Points
Carver 06/09/12 - 07:08 am
2
1
Dementia . . . ?

". . these militia are a minute percentage of the population."
**************

The hard core militia-types described in Norseman's post comprise about .0001 percent of the population, about 50,000 people scattered across the entire nation. There are more Roman Catholic nuns in the country than there are hard-core militia-types. By comparison, there are 1.2 million practicing Buddhists in the United States, two and one-half million Muslims, and one million, two hundred thousand Jehovah's Witnesses.

Can it be any wonder then that the other 99.9999 percent of the population considers the militia-mentality demented?

Raoulduke
2889
Points
Raoulduke 06/09/12 - 07:30 am
1
0
20+ years served

Working for the power brokers of global corporatism.Why would any person want to do such a thing?Trying to change things from the inside?No! The 20 year retirement check is my best guess.If not .Why stay so long employed with the power brokers you dislike?You could have gotten employment with an employer you enjoyed,and not one you disliked,but the retirement monies would have arrived at the age of 65. The CONCEALED TRUTH is You have continuously self contradicted yourself.Which is it?You served the power brokers.This is Your own description.Penned by you.But profess to be proud of serving these power brokers.You are entirely to easy to see through.

Raoulduke
2889
Points
Raoulduke 06/09/12 - 07:33 am
0
0
20+ years served

Working for the power brokers of global corporatism.Why would any person want to do such a thing?Trying to change things from the inside?No! The 20 year retirement check is my best guess.If not .Why stay so long employed with the power brokers you dislike?You could have gotten employment with an employer you enjoyed,and not one you disliked,but the retirement monies would have arrived at the age of 65. The CONCEALED TRUTH is You have continuously self contradicted yourself.Which is it?You served the power brokers.This is Your own description.Penned by you.But profess to be proud of serving these power brokers.You are entirely to easy to see through.

Raoulduke
2889
Points
Raoulduke 06/09/12 - 07:33 am
0
0
20+ years served

Working for the power brokers of global corporatism.Why would any person want to do such a thing?Trying to change things from the inside?No! The 20 year retirement check is my best guess.If not .Why stay so long employed with the power brokers you dislike?You could have gotten employment with an employer you enjoyed,and not one you disliked,but the retirement monies would have arrived at the age of 65. The CONCEALED TRUTH is You have continuously self contradicted yourself.Which is it?You served the power brokers.This is Your own description.Penned by you.But profess to be proud of serving these power brokers.You are entirely to easy to see through.

Raoulduke
2889
Points
Raoulduke 06/09/12 - 07:33 am
0
0
20+ years served

Working for the power brokers of global corporatism.Why would any person want to do such a thing?Trying to change things from the inside?No! The 20 year retirement check is my best guess.If not .Why stay so long employed with the power brokers you dislike?You could have gotten employment with an employer you enjoyed,and not one you disliked,but the retirement monies would have arrived at the age of 65. The CONCEALED TRUTH is You have continuously self contradicted yourself.Which is it?You served the power brokers.This is Your own description.Penned by you.But profess to be proud of serving these power brokers.You are entirely to easy to see through.

Carver
1118
Points
Carver 06/09/12 - 08:07 am
1
1
"You are entirely to easy to see through . . ."

Be gentle . . that's the thing about dementia . . what one says need not make sense . . need not be consistent or rational . .;-)

spwright
1376
Points
spwright 06/09/12 - 08:50 am
0
0
Jack Ass 6/9/12

Have Ya ever had the Fun experience of trying to get a STUBBORN JACK ASS to move in the direction that you need that Jack Ass to move.
You can push,pull, cuss & discuss, yank, smack it with a board, Yell, Scream, Rant & Rave
& that damn Jack Ass is NOT going to Move Anywhere that it does not wish to go. Only when You lure that Jack Ass with Food & Kind Words does it begin to move.

Well guess What? Getting these MILITIA types to admit that They are Wrong are just like trying to move a Jack Ass.

Maybe when Mr. Cox is found Guilty & sent to Prison
Norm & Ray will finally "See the Light" & then understand that They could be Next.

SAVE Your Breath cuz these Jack Asses are not moving.

SPW"Airborne"

RaySouthwell
953
Points
RaySouthwell 06/09/12 - 08:55 am
0
1
Raoulduke

I think we will disagree on who is to blame for corporate personhood. Please see the case law on Corporate personhood, it is not new. It was established with the Supreme Court years ago (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood )

The problems in the country are not caused by the Republicans or Democrats but by those politicians who have sold their vote to the highest bidder. I have friends who believe all the problems are Presidents Obama’s fault. The problems are on both the republican and democrat side. The powers that be, do a great job dividing us.

“Love it or leave it.” I remember the words and even spoke them as a young man. Then in the late 70’s I began to understand what has happened to the country. Unfortunately the left, who objected to those words then, now repeat them often today.

You remind me of the slave mentality of the past. The master knows best and just submit because they are in charge and we cannot change a thing. I believe otherwise. Another area we disagree. I believe, if I have the faith of a mustard seed all things are possible. My faith (religion) is not used to judge others but to gives me strength to face evil.

And so I do- Tax Court on the 18th of June.

Norseman
2943
Points
Norseman 06/09/12 - 08:56 am
1
0
..."As always, the

..."As always, the combination of intelligence, coordinated law enforcement efforts, and an informed public
is the most effective way to counter the threats posed by domestic extremists"....

The public can help by being informed. Learn from factual sources exactly what the militia are up to. Do your part and expose the truth about militias. When they open their pie holes spewing forth their paranoid ideaolgy, fight back.

Recognize the fact that the FBI, Homeland Security and the ATF are all keeping an eye on these extremists groups. If you see or hear something, report it. We have lived, worked, and played here LONG before the michigan militia transplants arrived and fared pretty well.

Those who wish to do our country harm by treason, sedition, or being traitors need to wake up and smell the coffee. After 911, Americans no longer idly sit by and wait for extremists to act out. We have in place a safty net to catch these would be terrorists.
If all eyes and ears are open and ready to expose those who desire to harm our country, we will have done our part.

I salute our brave men and women serving our country that keep an ever watchfull eye on the extremists.

Carver
1118
Points
Carver 06/09/12 - 09:21 am
1
1
Conceited opinion!

". . in the late 70’s I began to understand what has happened to the country. . ."
****************

No, you understand no such thing . . you have an opinion, that's all, and we all know what opinions are like. Moreover, to be able to say to a neighbor, "You remind me of the slave mentality of the past," betrays unbelievable conceit on your part.

Are you really, really all that smart?

Disgusting!

RaySouthwell
953
Points
RaySouthwell 06/09/12 - 09:28 am
0
1
Carver

Here is an NYT article concerning President Obama’s “secret kill list.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in-war-on-al-qaeda.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

I wonder where I am on this list. Reading the half truths and ad hominem attacks here, it would appear I must be near the top. Many will be glad when I am taken out. The world will be so much safer. I just pray my family does not become collateral damage as has happened so many time in the past.

What confuses me is why you do not want to discuss or debate issues here. You want to go to an international forum. It appears to me, you do not have the strength to debate the issues alone. You must need some backup from international sources instead of local people.
I am more interested in local individual thought than international thought. The militia is community based, self preservation. International dialog not needed.

RaySouthwell
953
Points
RaySouthwell 06/09/12 - 09:35 am
0
1
Norseman

You seem to know a lot about the Militia. Looks like you get your information from "government sources."

Do you know where I am listed on President Obama’s secret “kill list?”

Carver
1118
Points
Carver 06/09/12 - 10:01 am
1
1
Read my lips . . . :-)

"Carver, What confuses me is why you do not want to discuss or debate issues here. You want to go to an international forum. It appears to me, you do not have the strength to debate the issues alone. . ."
***********

But how would you know, Ray? Try me . . :-) I've offered many times now to debate the issues with you, but you continue to decline on the basis of venue. You want it your way, Ray? Sorry, take it or leave it . . read my lips. In the meantime, your accusation is pathetic.

Keep talking . . you guys are diggin' yerselves in deeper with every post . . . the more you guys talk, the stranger you get. (Do you actually believe that "hit list" baloney you posted above?)

Carry on . .

normolson
389
Points
normolson 06/09/12 - 10:26 am
0
1
Huh?

It commented: "militia extremists are anti-government."

True. But so are environmental extremists and many other extremist groups who have determined that no government control would be best.

Neither I nor Ray are anti-government. You'll never find a quote where I said I was. On the contrary, I respect government and support the need for it. The Founders also saw the need for it, but warned us that: " “Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master.” (G. Washington)

The federal government was constructed as servant to the people, to protect and serve.

What we are against is the tyranny OF government and the the tyrants WITHIN.

Carver
1118
Points
Carver 06/09/12 - 11:08 am
1
1
We love the government . . .

"Neither I nor Ray are anti-government . . ."
***************

"The central government consolidates, condenses, and amasses power . . That power corrupts absolutely. The beast will not be satisfied and evil will prevail as long as good men do nothing." —Commander, Alaska Citizens Militia

". . shall we just hope that someone else will stop the . . agents of a tyrannical government bent on destroying our life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness?” —Commander, Alaska Citizens Militia

". . the central government would have us disarmed if they could, thinking it would promote its continuing consolidation of power. Barring that, the central government doesn't want us talking about defending ourselves against it.” —Commander, Alaska Citizens Militia

" Tax Court on the 18th of June. . ." —Ray

RaySouthwell
953
Points
RaySouthwell 06/09/12 - 11:16 am
0
1
Carver

Do you think the NYT article is more apocalyptic babble?

Citizens of the USA have been killed from this “hit list.”

Here is a video with Law Professor Boyle concerning the issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P12zPdR3pyA

Of course he is talking about the Constitution, you probably do not care.

Carver
1118
Points
Carver 06/09/12 - 11:41 am
1
1
Pitiful . . .

"Carver, . . he is talking about the Constitution, you probably do not care."
***************
Your snotty insult is pathetic. . .

For any interested in the hard truth of current realties:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/09/30/anwar-al-awlaki-and-why-president-barack-obama-is-right-to-kill-u-s-cit...

Norseman
2943
Points
Norseman 06/09/12 - 12:04 pm
2
0
hit list

Ray, you are on a fbi watch list, not a hit list. This is the problem with militias. The extreme paranoia consumes them. Listen to the Cox testimony. He claims there was ninja dressed black booted thugs ready to kill him.

Now ray says he is on some government hit list. This rationale is coming from the same two paranoid conspiracy driven militiamen that claimed the Oklahoma City bombing was retaliation from the Japanese Government. Does the word bizarre ring a bell here?

The facts were it was done by timothy mcveigh. Someone who bought into the hate and fear driven idealogy of the extreme domestic movements.

Citizens need to stay diligent in protecting their communities from extreme domestic groups such as the militias. Expose them at every turn. Let them know that when the time comes, they will be the ones on the WRONG side of history.

Carver
1118
Points
Carver 06/09/12 - 12:14 pm
1
1
Keep 'em talking . . .

"Citizens need to stay diligent in protecting their communities from extreme domestic groups such as the militias. Expose them at every turn."
*****************

Well said. Just keep them talking . . the more they talk, the more they expose themselves. The more they expose, the sillier and more extreme they look.

kksalm
232
Points
kksalm 06/09/12 - 05:42 pm
1
0
Promoting fear

It's practically an economy.
What could possibly happen?
http://m.rockfound.org/news/scenarios-future-technology
Have a wonderful day.

RaySouthwell
953
Points
RaySouthwell 06/10/12 - 04:27 am
0
1
carver

You stated- “your snotty insult is pathetic”

Here is the list of names you have called those in the Militia.

According to you, we are or live by

"Conspiracy theories-spouting hate-doom and gloom messianic complex-narcissistic diatribe-not interested in intelligent dialog- men like Jim Jones and David Koresh- ignorant rant-sky is falling malarkey-imagination fueled by your presuppositions- apocalyptic babble- Living in Loonieville- mentally demented."

That statement about “imagination” was the one of the words, to describe me, in my firing from CPH. At trial my “imagination” turned to fact.

You do not want to debate/discuss anything. Only name calling and ad hominem attacks. If my memory serves me you stated you would debate/discuss issues if Norm answered your first question. He answered and then you changed your mind. You fear discussing our governments failures because you cannot justify your ignorance.

RaySouthwell
953
Points
RaySouthwell 06/10/12 - 04:34 am
0
1
Carver

Carver,
I quote from your posted article about Awlaki, the author states-

“Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and then-CIA director Leon Panetta, according to one account related to me, were the “war wing.” They took the hardline view that Americans who seek to kill other Americans can themselves be killed to save lives. After all, it is war. And, the Fifth Amendment was never successfully used in court to limit a president’s war-fighting powers.”

Another quote-”Based on Awlaki’s links to two 9/11 hijackers.”

Many here believe, I have links to the OKC attack and am a “terrorist threat”, just ask the FBI or Norseman, who you support.

With your authors above statement it is just a short step, for me, to be placed on President Obama’s “hit list.”

Just repeat the lie over and over until the people ignore the murder of someone because they believe what was repeated so many times.

BTW- the article you posted did not mention the justification of Awlaki’s 16 year old son’s murder. Just collateral damage in your eyes?

I find it interesting that CPH brought up my Militia history in Court a few weeks ago. If the Court determines I was illegally fired from CPH, the hospital will refuse to hire me back because the people fear me. Why do people fear me?

RaySouthwell
953
Points
RaySouthwell 06/10/12 - 04:46 am
0
1
"Well said. Just keep them

"Well said. Just keep them talking . . the more they talk, the more they expose themselves. The more they expose, the sillier and more extreme they look."

More silly comments posted to my facebook page today

More bank Bailouts in Europe.

http://news.yahoo.com/imf-us-praise-100-bn-euro-bank-deal-042009708.html

The global economic system continues to disintegrate based on a poor economic system. After the Stock market crash in 1929 the people understood we needed protection from speculative banking and Glass-Steagall Act was instituted in 1933. In 1999 it was repealed and we have seen the global meltdown since.

Europe leads the way with the nations refereed to as the PIIGS nations. Portugal,Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain.

Just a few years ago we were hearing about Greece economic problems. Governments and Media from around the world talked about help for Greece. Now we read the same rhetoric about Spain.

We must break up the monopolies of the “banks too big to fail” with the reimplementation of Glass-Steagall (Representative Marcy Kaptur-HR 1489).

RaySouthwell
953
Points
RaySouthwell 06/10/12 - 05:43 am
0
1
Carver

Silly comments from Paul Craig Roberts about Alwaki’s murder.

You might like Roberts, he has been credited with helping develop Reaganomics while serving as President Reagan’s Assistant Secretary of the Treasury.

Than again, perhaps he is just "mentally demented" as you think of me.

http://lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts328.html

Carver
1118
Points
Carver 06/10/12 - 06:22 am
1
1
More perspective on extremism . . .

"Even though the quantity and quality of conspiracy theories and bigoted views may vary from militia to militia, they all share an anti-government animus. That paranoid stance - that the Federal government is criminal and that militia members are protecting the Constitution - is not to be underestimated. One possible explanation for his new phenomenon is that, since the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War, the focus of the extreme right has been directed toward the American government. Jews are seen by many of the leaders of this movement - who share their ideology with new recruits who might have been attracted initially by issues like the Brady Bill - as the evil force behind government. These militia members are not talking about change from the ballot box alone. Many are enamored by the prospect of change through bullets, explosives, and heavy armaments. It is not unreasonable to surmise that this blend of anti-Semitic and anti-government paranoia and guns will result in tragedies such as the bombing of the Federal Building in Oklahoma City in April, 1995, perpetrated by individuals who carry their beliefs to the extreme. This is a movement with an ideology of contempt for the government, including criminal laws. It is urgent that law enforcement agencies understand the threat and begin to share strategies and information. Militia activity is not provided for by the Second Amendment. Private militias are in violation of paramilitary training laws, state constitutional provisions that reserve the right to form a militia to the state, and possibly other provisions of state and Federal law. In the words of Ken Toole, president of the Montana Human Rights Network, "We can't conduct public business in an atmosphere of fear." That fear is exemplified by a 1995 resolution of the Idaho legislature finding that "public statements threatening civil war and the infliction of bodily harm upon public officials are outside the realm of [First Amendment] rights." On the grass-roots level across the country, the militia movement is harassing its opponents, threatening law enforcement officials, stockpiling weapons, and spreading paranoid rumors on the Internet. It is time that state and Federal officials understand not only the danger of this movement, but also, from a more parochial vantage point, that government employees across the country are going about their tasks while there are people planning just when to target them in their cross-hairs. These are individuals prepared to shoot at the slimmest indication of government actions. They may believe that the firefighter coming to put out the suspicious blaze in their barn or the member of the Forest Service counting rainbow trout in a nearby creek are part of an invasion force."

—Kenneth Stern, Director on antisemitism, hate studies and extremism for the American Jewish Committee

Carver
1118
Points
Carver 06/10/12 - 06:30 am
1
1
Militias, 'Patriots," and Angry White Guys

"As important as environmental issues are in the West, they are only part of what is driving the militia movement. The militias have close ties to the older and more broadly based "Patriot" movement, from which they emerged, and which supplies their worldview. Accordingto Chip Berlet, an analyst at Political Research Associates in Cambridge, Massachusetts, who has been tracking the far right for over two decades, this movement consists of loosely linked organizations and individuals who perceive a global conspiracy in which key political and economic events are manipulated by a small group of elite insiders.

"On the far right flank of the Patriot movement are white supremacists and anti-Semites, who believe that the world is controlled by a cabal of Jewish bankers. This position is represented by, among others, the Liberty Lobby and its weekly newspaper, the Spotlight. At the other end of this relatively narrow spectrum is the John Birch Society, which has repeatedly repudiated anti- Semitism, but hews to its own paranoid vision. For the Birchers, it is not the Rothschilds but such institutions as the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission, and the U.N. which secretly call the shots.

"This far-right milieu is home to a variety of movements, including Identity Christians, Constitutionalists, tax protesters, and remnants of the semi-secret Posse Comitatus. Members of the Christian right who subscribe to the conspiratorial world view presented in Pat Robertson's 1991 book, The New World Order, also fall within the movement's parameters. Berlet estimates that as many as five million Americans consider themselves Patriots.

"While the Patriot movement has long existed on the margins of U.S. society, it has grown markedly in recent years. Three factors have sparked that growth.

"One is the end of the Cold War. For over 40 years, the 'international communist conspiracy' held plot-minded Americans in thrall. But with the collapse of the Soviet empire, their search for enemies turned toward the federal government, long an object of simmering resentment.

"The other factors are economic and social. While the Patriot movement provides a pool of potential recruits for the militias, it in turn draws its members from a large and growing number of U.S. citizens disaffected from and alienated by a government that seems indifferent, if not hostile, to their interests. This predominantly white, male, and middle- and working-class sector has been buffeted by global economic restructuring, with its attendant job losses, declining real wages and social dislocations. While under economic stress, this sector has also seen its traditional privileges and status challenged by 1960s-style social movements, such as feminism, minority rights, and environmentalism.

"Someone must be to blame. But in the current political context, serious progressive analysis is virtually invisible, while the Patriot movement provides plenty of answers. Unfortunately, they are dangerously wrong-headed ones."

—Daniel Junas, Seattle-based political researcher and author of "The Religious Right in Washington State," published by the ACLU of Washington.

Carver
1118
Points
Carver 06/10/12 - 06:42 am
1
1
Background information . . .

The material below is from Hatewatch, a function of the Southern Poverty Law Center
************************

Michigan Militia Leader in ’90s, Back in Action in Alaska
Posted in Militias by David Holthouse on September 16, 2009

A key figure of the 1990s antigovernment “Patriot” movement who largely dropped from public view in 2002 has resurfaced in Alaska, where he’s recruiting for his newly formed Alaska Militia.

Norm Olson, who founded the Michigan Militia in 1994, held an organizational meeting last Thursday at a community center in Nikiski, a small town in the Kenai Peninsula region about 170 road miles from Anchorage.

Olson’s message: “Something very evil this way comes.”

“We’re looking at catastrophe just a couple months away — economic collapse, food shortages around the world, prices in stores are gonna go skyrocketing with this inflation,” Olson told the roughly 20 attendees, according to The Redoubt Reporter, a Kenai Peninsula newspaper.

“I’m convinced that times are coming when we are going to have to repel federal aggression, tyrannical oppressive federal aggression. They’re going to want to quell any kind of uprising, because it’s bad for politics,” Olson was quoted as saying.

Presiding over the meeting alongside Olson was Michigan Militia co-founder Ray Southwell. In the 1990s Olson and Southwell together made the Michigan Militia one of the first major antigovernment Patriot groups in the country and helped transform their former home state into a hotbed of Patriot activity.

Olson drew widespread attention to his group when he revealed that Oklahoma City bombing conspirator Terry Nichols had attended a Michigan Militia meeting not long before the terrorist attack.

At the Nikiski meeting, Olson and Southwell were photographed dressed in full camouflage uniforms with “Don’t Tread on Me” coiled-snake patches and Alaska Militia insignia.

Olson told a reporter that he and Southwell moved to the Kenai Peninsula about five years ago, and that he purchased a 20-acre parcel of land that now serves as the base of operations for the Alaska Militia. . . .

Olson’s attempt to fire up the militia movement on the Kenai Peninsula is one of many signs of a resurgence of the Patriot movement, as The Southern Poverty Law Center reported last month.

"It is doubtful that the militia will ever be socially acceptable,” Olson told The Redoubt Reporter. “The central government and the controlled media will paint you as criminals, terrorists, extremists, radicals, anti-government, wing nuts. Are you willing to pay the price?”

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