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There’s a reason for the 2nd Amendment

Posted: May 29, 2012 - 8:15am

Many of you keep weapons and have planned your response if a crack-high zombie goon, a murderous bear, or a thief threatens. Your threat to retaliate, having the means to do so provides safety, at least from those who are smart enough to know you will shoot. Even radio ads here in Alaska warn that homeowners are armed. The threat alone keeps the bad guys at bay.

But why are some people wrong to be just as afraid of agents from a government who they perceive are coming for them, their property or their children? "That's irrational fear," you say, but consider America in the 1770s when guns and the threat of using them stood alone against the tyrannical Crown government; and, when on April 19, 1775, a demonstration of that determination was witnessed for all the world to see and ponder. In different times and places in history, the gun symbolized the unspoken understanding that "if you aggress against me, you will die." For that very reason, the Gadsden Flag is emblazoned with a rattle snake rather than a lamb.

We can debate what a genuine threat might be, but does it matter? Shall we say there is no need to fear, regardless of the nature of the threat? Or, shall we just hope that someone else will stop the goons, bears, thieves, mad dogs, or even agents of a tyrannical government bent on destroying our life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness? Shall we try to negotiate with a marauding bear or a mad dog? I reckon not!

It appears that the central government would have us disarmed if they could, thinking it would promote its continuing consolidation of power. Barring that, the central government doesn't want us talking about defending ourselves against it. The Founding Fathers did more than talk. They declared that natural law requires free people bear arms to defend themselves and to organize themselves, logically to make the necessary plans to do so. If the Founders had no concern the federal government could grow tyrannical there would have been no reason to make the 2nd Amendment imperative. You may say that the central government cannot stop you from planning or thinking how to defend yourself against it, but they need not do that. All that is necessary is to convince you that their agents are no threat at all and that they are really there to help you.

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Raoulduke
3055
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Raoulduke 06/12/12 - 04:18 am
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citizen

The citizen was a TERRORIST,and got summarily executed.Just like any of the other TERRORIST.Which is what is deserved.This person was connected rather closely,and performed acts of treason,and sedition.Which have,or would have killed many more AMERICANS.I for one feel.Sir! Anyone who has any sympathy for such people.I find disgraceful.Especially when some of these sympathizers are receiving a monthly stipend from the 20 plus years of service to the POWER BROKERS of GLOBAL CORPORATISM.Once again.A true display of talking out of both sides of the mouth.I praise the president for having the testicular fortitude for doing so.One less TERRORIST.I also apologize for commenting to the warped minded individual.Something I said.I would not do again.But to find a retired military servant of the power brokers of global corporatism sympathetic towards such ilk.Why not send your stipend back?Since it is coming from a place you have such contempt.Sir! You are a disgrace to the uniform you wore,and you make me want to vomit.To deny your disgrace.I would find to be a LIE.

Carver
1129
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Carver 06/12/12 - 07:07 am
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The boorish among us . . .

"Critics remain invisible . . Coming from invisible entities without identity . . there are snipers who hide in the shadows, saying what they will without accountability. It truly marks the weak and timid among us."
*******************

Comments like the quote above mark the rude and boorish among us.

Moreover, the Commander/Pastor's continued efforts to learn the identities of his critics is truly alarming. From today's ADN:

". . Schaeffer Cox, the lead defendant and militia commander, once threatened a Fairbanks judge in open court with retaliation by his force, . ."

One does well to exercise a degree of caution when disagreeing with such people.

If Commander/Pastor Olson wants to criticize anonymous Internet discussion, he should write another letter-to-the-editor on the subject. In the meantime, he should stick with the subject at hand, which is his gospel of guns, fear, and hate.

RaySouthwell
953
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RaySouthwell 06/12/12 - 08:48 am
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Carver

Carver,
You stated _”paranoid gospel of guns, fear and hate.”

Lets look at YOUR paranoid gospel of fear and hate and do a comparison. I assume as an Alaskan you already have guns and know how to use them, in self defense.

I fear my government and the failure of sound economic system to benefit the people and governments behavior against the people. I can give you documents supporting my fear from economic experts, Constitutional experts, etc. In your mind, it does not matter.

You fear me and others who express their thoughts regarding the Second Amendment and its purpose of self preservation.

You can give me only the same repeated documents from “government sources” that generate the fear that somehow my speech can cause another OKC bombing. Hogwash. Free Speech has never caused people to respond violently unless there is truth in the speech presented.

I fear my government as did the Founders of the nation.

You fear your neighbors because they speak the truth and you call them “paranoid, Conspiracy theories-spouting hate-doom and gloom messianic complex-narcissistic diatribe-not interested in intelligent dialog- men like Jim Jones and David Koresh- ignorant rant-sky is falling malarkey-imagination fueled by your presuppositions- apocalyptic babble- Living in Loonieville- mentally demented.”

I think you have crossed over to irrational though with the words you have used.

Relax, you do not need to fear your neighbors.

RaySouthwell
953
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RaySouthwell 06/12/12 - 08:59 am
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Raoulduke

That is where we differ. I believe in freedom and am willing to fight for it in the workplace and in government. When employees came to me about abusive management style, I stood against it, regardless who is signing my paycheck. I was fired for exposing the truth. During the trial a few weeks ago, I did not see people from the community there, to hear the facts presented. I now realize, most think as you do. Ignore the world around them. If you find the truth, then you will have to stand with it.

The cost is too great.

Another area we disagree. People are not “expendable” chattel. I believe we were created in the image of God and are all equal in Gods eyes.

This nation was created under Rule of Law. That is, no one or corporation is above the law. I know you do not believe in “corporate personhood and see how the mega-corporations are above the law. You also see Presidents Bushs were above the law. What I do not understand is why you do not see our current President is also acting above the law when he executed a citizen, ignoring the Fifth Amendment, due process.

Perhaps this is another area we disagree. I believe all presidents are bad and need checks and balances to stay under the Rule of Law. It is mans fallen condition of self interest.

Carver
1129
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Carver 06/12/12 - 09:32 am
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Naughty, naughty . .

"Carver, You fear me and others who express their thoughts . . You fear your neighbors because they speak the truth . ."
****************

Don't put words in my mouth! I don't "fear" you or my neighbors.

I am simply cautious of tax evaders, militaristic gun-slingers, those who threaten federal judges, those who boast about going out in a blaze of gunfire in front of their family, being on a federal "hit-list," and so on.

Such folks are, as I see it, seriously unhinged.

Carver
1129
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Carver 06/12/12 - 09:23 am
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All except us . . .

"I believe all . . are bad and need checks and balances to stay under the Rule of Law. It is mans fallen condition of self interest."
****************

All, that is, except the militia-types? Who "checks and balances" them? They themselves have declared:

". . we are . . genetic rebels . . We don't want be under the authority of another human being."

Ah, but they alone know the truth! They alone fight for freedom! They alone know best! All the rest of us are idiots.

What a joke. If it weren't so dangerously pathetic, it would be funny.

Carver
1129
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Carver 06/12/12 - 09:49 am
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Questions . . .

"Carver, Relax, you do not need to fear your neighbors."
**************

I don't fear my neighbors, Ray, but I am cautious of you militia-types. Trouble is, I don't know who the militia-types are.

You and the Commander have tried several times here to learn the identities of the rest of us. How about some questions for you:

What is your rank in the militia? Lt. Commander?

How many signed-on, hard-core members in your militia? A dozen? Two dozen?

Will your militia members reveal their names?

Raoulduke
3055
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Raoulduke 06/12/12 - 09:58 am
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Dead Terrorist=Good Terrorist

Terrorist is a terrorist.Remember the Patriot Act.I for one believe.They gave up their rights as soon as they joined in the terrorist game.One less terrorist the better.People comparing their employment dismissals to government covert conspiracies.I must say.They are the ones very full of themselves.
Like I have stated REALITY for one is NOT reality for another.Quit your crying.Get another job.Pay your taxes like the Patriot you claim.Then ,and maybe only then .I may give credence to what you post.Until then I find you to be a parasite on the rest of the American tax payers.

Carver
1129
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Carver 06/12/12 - 10:23 am
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Excessive conceit . . .

"Like I have stated REALITY for one is NOT reality for another."
**************

Bingo! Perception is reality! And that's what these militia-types don't get and can't get. They insist that their perceptions, their reality, is, must be, and should be our reality. It is impossible to overstate such hubristic ignorance.

There are, what, a dozen or so people here on the peninsula who share Olson/Southwell's perceptions to the point where they've signed on as militia members? What does that say about the other 50,000 or so borough residents? That we're stupid? That our perceptions are uneducated? Dumb?

How full of themselves does a person have to be, how lacking in any kind of humility, how conceited to think they and they alone know the score, that they and they alone have the truth, and that anyone who disagrees with them is a coward or stupid or brainwashed.

It boggles the mind . . .

normolson
393
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normolson 06/12/12 - 12:39 pm
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Perception Is Never Reality.

Basic principles of physics, philosophy, and psychology:

1. Perception is never reality. It is only real to the person who perceives it be. If you think you see things as they really are, you're probably filtering through dozens of colored glasses.

2. All behaviour is rational to the person who is behaving. I once saw a man eat broken glass and razor blades. . .but without salt! Can you imagine?

3. Opinions are like noses in that everyone has one.

There are six major contributors on this particular blog who have collectively posted more than 200 opinions. According to principle 1. above, no one is precisely correct, and according to principle 2. above, no one wants to admit he/she/it may be wrong.

So, let's consider how to deal with the unforeseen things in the future. Logically, there are only four possible actions that one can take in dealing with an unknown future:
1. Prepare because something will happen.
2. Prepare even though nothing will happen.
3. Don't prepare for nothing will happen.
4. Don't prepare even though something will happen.

Which of the above would be a rational action and which would be a really stupid mistake. Ray mentioned that we all have guns in our homes. I have plenty, but I don't hunt animals for food. Ray has only one big game rifle and he's pretty handy with it when black bear season comes around.

Both of us are stockpiling provisions for natural or manmade disaster and other resources able to be used to bring aid and/or security (as needed) to our neighbors.

So, again, if we are "Preparing because something will happen," what shall we say to those who do nothing?

I'd say, it's not logical and none of you would either. You are preparing BECAUSE you know that one day there'll be 20 feet of snow and power outages that go on and on, or that Redoubt will blow its stack, or that the ground will quake.

So again, who is sane and logical here? The perennial naysayers continue to berate me and Ray because we perceive the threats, but to what degree and when, we know not. But a wise and prudent man OUGHT to prepare for the worst, just in case.

normolson
393
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normolson 06/12/12 - 12:43 pm
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Knock, Knock...we're from the government and want to help you.

The FBI is deliberately creating terrorists AND lighting the fuse that will set off troubled and frightened people.
Premise: There are some people who are very frightened of their central government.

FBI Provide Weapons for Attempted Terrorist Attack on US Capitol

February 20, 2012
If the latest news from the Department of Justice is to be believed, a 29 year old terrorist conspired to develop and carry out an attempted terrorist attack on U.S. soil.

In fact – as the DOJ press release story goes – Amine El Khalifi, an illegal immigrant from Morocco, was arrested in Washington for allegedly attempting a suicide attack against the U.S. Capitol building.

The news reports all indicate that Amine El Khalifi planned this and other attacks over several months, and that he was only captured after a carefully planned investigation was carried out by the FBI’s Joint Terrorism Task Force.

However, when you start digging more deeply into the story than most journalists appear willing to do, you will learn a few disturbing facts about the case that make it apparent this is more of a fabricated attack scenario than a nefarious Al-Qaeda sleeper-agent.

In fact, it is likely that the attempted terrorist attack against the U.S. Capitol Building would never have materialized if it weren’t for the careful efforts of the undercover FBI agents encouraging El Khalifi to act out his extremist beliefs.

Why would the FBI seek to encourage such an individual to carry out his actions? One likely answer is that such an arrest – the seemingly heroic halt of a terrorist attack against the U.S. Capitol Building – not only “proves” that the Feds are doing their job in protecting the nation against terrorist, but it also serves to keep the idea alive that the U.S. is under a constant threat from terrorism.

Entrapping an Unstable Individual
At first glance, the story appears as though Amine El Khalifi was caught in the middle of an elaborate terrorist scheme to bomb U.S. targets, at closer inspection it becomes obvious that Amine El Khalifi was simply an unstable individual with extreme views regarding the war on terrorism and U.S. sentiment toward Muslims.

If you read the DOJ press release carefully, it is apparent that before the FBI set their covert agents loose upon El Khalifi, he was nothing more than an illegal immigrant with an extreme opinion. However, that opinion was enough to attract the attention of the FBI, which set its machinery in motion to entrap the young man into actually carrying out an attack.

It all started on January 11th, 2011, when an FBI source happened to be at a residence in Arlington, VA, where El Khalifi was also present. The FBI source watched as one person at the residence took out an AK-47 and some revolvers and started preaching to those present about how the U.S. War on Terrorism is actually a “War on Muslims.”

Keep in mind, that the man with the guns who was expressing that opinion was not El Khalifi. All Khalifi did to attract the interest of the FBI informant was to agree with that individual’s extreme beliefs.

He agreed with an opinion.

That meeting set in motion a surreal series of actions by the FBI’s Joint Terrorism Task Force to encourage the young man to further explore his agreement with those sentiments, and to even consider carrying them out. The FBI went so far as to supply El Khalifi with the very weapons that he could use to carry out the act.

Then, at the last moment, they could sweep in and arrest him – proving to the country that the terrorist threat is alive and well. But is that the real story?

How the FBI Grew a Terrorist
Reading the DOJ press release describing the so-called “investigation” is like observing an admission of entrapment like no other. It is surprising that the DOJ would be willing to admit to these actions at all.

According to the press release, after that initial meeting in the apartment in early 2011, the undercover FBI agent known as “Hussien” introduced El Khalifi to another undercover agent going by the name of “Yusuf”.

According to the DOJ, El Khalifi was the one who “proposed to carry out a bombing attack”, and that he suggested bombing a U.S. military building, a synagogue, and a restaurant frequented by U.S. Army generals. Up until his interactions with the undercover agents, from all indications it appears that El Khalifi was nothing more than an unstable individual with extreme beliefs about the U.S. War on Terror – that he was all talk.

However the agents appeared to diligently guide El Khalifi toward a more “active” approach to those beliefs. Instead of simply talking about and planning such fictional attacks, the undercover agents suggested that El Khalifi should connect with al-Qaeda and act out his fantasies.

Early this year, on January 7th, the FBI stepped up their entrapment when undercover agent “Hussien” told El Khalifi that he was an operative for al-Qaeda, and discussed El Khalifi’s desires to bomb a restaurant and the idea that al-Qaeda operatives could carry it out. According to the DoJ, “El Khalifi understood that his attack on the restaurant would be part of an al-Qaeda operation…”

Again – this was nothing more than a discussion that was encouraged by the FBI undercover agents themselves. Is there really any evidence showing that El Khalifi – however unstable he was – would have ever entertained these ideas regarding attempted terrorist attacks had they not been introduced as a possibility by the undercover agents?

FBI Provided the Bomb and the Weapons
Undercover FBI agents assisted and encouraged El Khalifi – slowly directing him toward the U.S. Capitol Building attack, with the following actions:

1. Providing El Khalifi with a cell phone number and convincing him that he could call to detonate a “test bomb” that had been placed at a quarry in West Virginia.

2. Allowing El Khalifi to select February 17th as the day of the terrorist operation against the U.S. Capital Building.

3. Convincing El Khalifi to travel to the U.S. Capitol to conduct surveillance and to choose the drop-off spot where he would enter the building.

4. Providing El Khalifi with a MAC-10 automatic weapon, a bomb vest, and even the drop-off vehicle from which he would conduct the terrorist attack.

On the day of the “attack”, El Khalifi followed his part in the operation that the undercover FBI agents had so carefully planned out for him. Fully geared up with all of the FBI-provided “weapons of mass destruction”, El Khalifi started walking out of the parking garage, and was immediately arrested by FBI agents that were laying in wait for his arrival.

In an ironic statement following the arrest, Assistant Attorney General Monaco mentioned the event to reporters as though it was a case of an actual attempted terrorist attack that was thwarted by law enforcement as evidence of a “threat” from violent extremists in the U.S.

“Today’s case underscores the continuing threat we face from homegrown violent extremists. Thanks to a coordinated law enforcement effort, El Khalifi’s alleged plot was thwarted before anyone was harmed.”

When you look more carefully at the case, very serious questions arise concerning whose plot it really was? Who really suggested – or encouraged – the attack against the Capitol Building. Was this young, 29-year-old illegal immigrant from Moracco simply an unstable individual, at the wrong place at the wrong time? Was he simply an easy target for the feds to mold into what they would later label a “homegrown violent extremist”?

Because, from all indications, El Khalifi wasn’t homegrown at all – he was FBI-grown.

I’m all for fighting a war on terrorism – actual terrorism – but is it really necessary to provide unstable people with extreme views with the very weapons and inspiration to carry out acts of terrorism?

References & Image Credits:
(1) Department of Justice Press Release
(2) CBS News
(3) NY Daily News

Carver
1129
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Carver 06/12/12 - 12:52 pm
1
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Stay on-topic . . .

1. Perception is . . real to the person who perceives it be. . .
2. All behaviour is rational to the person who is behaving. . .
**************

Wow! You think? Who knew! That's the problem! Militia perception/behavior is not real or rational to the rest of us!

This thread is not about "stockpiling provisions for natural or manmade disaster," this thread is about the militia gospel of stockpiling fear, guns, and hate toward a militia-perceived threat from government.

Stick to the subject . . don't try to change the goalposts mid-game.

normolson
393
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normolson 06/12/12 - 01:03 pm
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I don't know you, but would you like to dance?

Since none of you critics are willing to use given names, may I select new names for each of you? I agree, that WOULD be rude and demeaning. I wouldn't stoop so low. But since you have selected your nom de plume for whatever reason, why do you pat on the back the one who calls me a psychotic
and Ray a bedbug parasite? Have you no decency at all?

The US Senators before who I testified asked our Information Officer for a list of militia members. He replied, "We will be glad to comply with your request... we'll send you a copy of the phone book."

Carver
1129
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Carver 06/12/12 - 01:07 pm
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Who can you believe?

"The FBI is deliberately creating terrorists. . .
. . FBI Provide Weapons for Attempted Terrorist Attack . .
. . the FBI stepped up their entrapment . .
. . encouraged by the FBI undercover agents
. . FBI Provided the Bomb and the Weapons
. . FBI agents assisted and encouraged . . . "
**************

And on and on and on ad nauseam . . .

Yes, yes, and the Japanese government was responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing.

"Norman Olson retained the position of Commander of the MMC until after the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995, where he published a press release blaming the Japanese for the bombing, supposedly in retaliation for a clandestine US-sponsored gas attack in the Tokyo subway system. This press release was seen as an embarrassment by the MMC membership and Lynn Van Huizen of Nunica, Michigan was elected state commander in 1996.

Van Huizen was listed in the FBI's report entitled Project Megiddo as a more moderate militia leader, 'A number of militia leaders, such as Lynn Van Huizen of the Michigan Militia Corps - Wolverines, have gone to some effort to actively rid their ranks of radical members who are inclined to carry out acts of violence and/or terrorism.'"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Militia

Raoulduke
3055
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Raoulduke 06/12/12 - 02:45 pm
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chattel

Not once did I state anyone was chattel.You did Ray.I asked you to read the Un-expendable Man.You obviously have not.You,and your cohort have criticized others for getting information from the governments sources.Now I read a comment Knock Knock Were from the government and want to help you.Then states the three sources from which the info is obtained
1. Department of justice press release-Not a government source?
2.CBS News-not a far step from Fox News
3.NY Daily News-one of thee most edited newspapers to as not upset the government.Some would call it selective censorship.
Read what you will.You should not chastise others from gaining info from same sources.
Now as far as a government conspiracy to dismiss Ray from employment. Come on get real.You obviously have been spewing your disapproval of the employers operating practices.Especially when you consider employment to be slavery.Working for the master.Which was probably displayed in your attitude.Remember !The person paying for your employment services.IS the man.Not the employee,I also noticed for a person.Who does not pay taxes.You are certainly using up tax payers money for your defense to regain your employment.What a two face.I know you are not paranoid,but You really have many thin conspiracy theories.

Raoulduke
3055
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Raoulduke 06/12/12 - 03:05 pm
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missing community people

Ray!Did you ever once consider. The reason why people from the community were not at your hearing.The hearing was yours,and you are not considered as significant as you believe you are.Just like all the no show militia at the trial of Cox.When in trouble as the cliche goes .Friends are few,and far between.Another fact of life.

normolson
393
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normolson 06/12/12 - 03:40 pm
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Huh?

Carver said:

"This thread is not about "stockpiling provisions for natural or manmade disaster," this thread is about the militia gospel of stockpiling fear, guns, and hate toward a militia-perceived threat from government."

Read the original letter to the editor again. It's about how people prepare to defend themselves against what they perceive to be a threat. It's about fear and people's response to it (bears, dogs, dangerous people).

Sheeze! Talk about changing the goal posts...

According to numerous polls, more than half of the people are frightened of the federal government. We're talking about fear.
Are my fears unreasonable? Let's check yours.

You are frightened, apparently by me, so you defend yourself by creating a conspiracy theory in your mind (even sharing the question of "why" with others to placate your own fear) that if I knew your real identity I might somehow endanger you. Your fear compelled a response. It's natural, but is it rational? I have never threatened to harm anyone who is not a threat. If you have formulated the notion that you present some kind of threat to me because of what you say in the blogs, you are really exaggerating the power of your words. I've debated the best, three times on "Crossfire," twice on "Nightline," on the air debating Ollie North and Henry Kissinger, in London on BBC debating Markus Howell (former Black Panther)..., before the US Senate, and scores of debates on radio and television that I can't even remember.

So don't over rate the strength of your words. I want to know your name so that I can treat you as a real person who I can respect. I served among men and women in uniform for more than 20 years and have pastored for nearly 25 years. Names are important, but not for the conspiracy theory that you have cooked up in your mind.

One may call it paranoia. I know a great deal about that subject.

normolson
393
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normolson 06/12/12 - 03:43 pm
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BTW

Carver: You said that perception is reality... I corrected you showing that perception is never reality.

Christian Science Motto:
What is real is not what you feel and that which you feel may not even be real, but imagine the pain within as you plop upon a pin, how real the unreal feels.

Carver
1129
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Carver 06/12/12 - 04:47 pm
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Too funny . . . :-)

"Carver: You said that perception is reality... I corrected you . . ."
***********

No, you just "perceive" that you corrected me. Get a clue, Commander, get a clue.

normolson
393
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normolson 06/12/12 - 08:55 pm
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Andrew Jackson, My Hero

"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen." —Samuel Adams

Carver
1129
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Carver 06/13/12 - 03:46 am
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St. Paul, my hero . . .

"Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience."

Carver
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Carver 06/13/12 - 04:22 am
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Sam said . . .

". . may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
******************

Bingo! . . . ;-)

Raoulduke
3055
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Raoulduke 06/13/12 - 04:07 am
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Hero

Was not Andrew Jackson the one that made sure the Native Americans were forcibly removed from their homelands?The fact of his bigotry/hate towards the Native American's is documented.Was it not Andrew Jackson who refused to abide by A Supreme Court ruling.Just because it did not suit him?I would think that act alone.Placed him ABOVE the Law of the Land.Something that the Militia command did not care to have in government.Which can be read in these postings.No ONE is ABOVE the LAW.I personally would have picked a more law abiding hero.I did not just serve my country for freedom,and liberty.I FOUGHT for it. Yes! My COUNTRY not the POWER BROKERS of GLOBAL CORPORATISM.This is where our thoughts differ.I still call the USA My country.I lick no ones hand,But only an absolute ass would bite the hand that does feed them.Remember!Self Preservation,and a little bit of tact.I again read your letter,and from the beginning of the second paragraph.You repeatedly state the tyrannical government of the USA.I believe.You are discovering Alaskans do not have a need for your militia.

leewaytooo
1867
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leewaytooo 06/13/12 - 04:56 am
1
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knock knock

the psychotic was a paper pusher
working in air conditioned spaces.
it lived a life where others have been
murdered as a result of it's words.

"the only thing that timothy did wrong was to get caught"
the psychotic

knock knock knock on the cellar's door.

can you hear it,
it is the sound you
hear and fear each and every moment.
and it is not the fbi, nor anyone living..
it is in your mind, feeble that it is..

knock.....

Carver
1129
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Carver 06/13/12 - 05:11 am
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+1 . . .

knock knock knock on the cellar's door.

can you hear it,
it is the sound you
hear and fear each and every moment.
and it is not the fbi, nor anyone living..
it is in your mind, feeble that it is..
*********************

Very good!

Thank you . . .

Carver
1129
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Carver 06/13/12 - 06:59 am
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The Trail of Tears . . .

". . [Andrew Jackson's] bigotry/hate towards the Native American's is documented."
****************

"In 1838 and 1839, as part of Andrew Jackson's Indian removal policy, the Cherokee nation was forced to give up its lands east of the Mississippi River and to migrate to an area in present-day Oklahoma. The Cherokee people called this journey the "Trail of Tears," because of its devastating effects. The migrants faced hunger, disease, and exhaustion on the forced march. Over 4,000 out of 15,000 of the Cherokees died. "

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4h1567.html

Norseman
3378
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Norseman 06/13/12 - 07:27 am
1
0
...."I've debated the best,

...."I've debated the best, three times on "Crossfire," twice on "Nightline," on the air debating Ollie North and Henry Kissinger, in London on BBC debating Markus Howell (former Black Panther)..., before the US Senate, and scores of debates on radio and television that I can't even remember..."
**********************************************
By golly we didn't know we had such a huge celebrity residing out in nikisiki. And now he is lowered to debating with us nameless folks in a local rag.

Tossing out names is suppossed to impress us? Name dropping is a last resort by someone desperate to gain some resemblance of credibility. That, or just stroking their own ego.

To me, you are just another fanatical domestic extremist.

Carver
1129
Points
Carver 06/13/12 - 08:29 am
1
0
Something paranoid this way came . . .

". . people with various states of paranoia did not receive empathy in their infancy or childhood; therefore, they were uncomfortable most of the time. . . Children who feel bad, come to think that they ARE bad. Feeling that you ARE bad is so intolerable, that these feelings are eventually projected upon the environment, and then the perception is, that other people are bad, and that they are misunderstood, victims, victims of society, the government. Who is the government? It is the rest of us, of course, but we become a nameless, faceless, nemesis.

Most paranoids retain the childhood feeling of hopelessness and helplessness. Most learn to live with it. Others react to this feeling of impotence by trying to exercise power, and one way to do that is to shoot guns and explode bombs. The delusion is that the government is against them, because they are against the government. Surely the federal government has grown and is very powerful, but it is a stretch of the imagination, in this free society, to feel persecuted and oppressed by an elected government. Nobody likes to pay taxes, but few of us believe we can live in a country without paying some dues. There is a role for the military, roads, health, education and welfare. Some of these paranoids become libertarians, anarchists and revolutionaries, in order to overcome feelings of helplessness and insecurity, stemming from childhood abuse and neglect. Many rationalize the brutality they experienced, with homilies like 'spare the rod and spoil the child', or feeling that they deserved the beating they got. This implies an internalized 'bad' parent, who is then externalized as a bad government official. . ."

— Victor Bloom, M.D. http://www.victorbloom.com/detail.php?id=1918

Carver
1129
Points
Carver 06/13/12 - 07:51 am
1
0
Crossfire, June 11, 2001 . . eleven years ago . . deja vu . .

Mr. Olson, let me just ask you directly, is Timothy McVeigh -- do you consider him a martyr for the American militia movement?

NORMAN OLSON, MILITIA MEMBER: Absolutely not. In fact, I reject your premise that he is in any way connected or a product of the militia movement at all. He is not, and never has been.

He is, in fact, the product of the corrupt, evil government that is now in Washington, the regime that is there -- and of course, the previous regime of Bill Clinton and Janet Reno. He is the spawn of that unholy marriage between an evil woman and a wicked, lecherous president. That's what he is. He is the product of the United States government. That's what he is. He is a child of the federal government.

PRESS: Well, I have heard Bill Clinton blamed for everything but the Oklahoma City bombing, until tonight. So, but -- let me ask you this. You say you reject Timothy McVeigh, yet the first place Timothy McVeigh went with his evil ideas was to a meeting of the Michigan militia. Now, is -- isn't what he did, as odious as it was, the direct conclusion of all of that anti-government rhetoric you spew and you are still spewing tonight?

OLSON: Well, listen, there has been anti-government rhetoric since 1776, Bill. Let's not forget that. I mean, we are Americans, right? I mean, we are born rebels. We -- it's in our genetic pool. We are genetic rebels. It's our nature to be defiant and to be suspicious of government.

And when abuses of government are manifested, especially the ones that we witnessed at Ruby Ridge and Waco and other places, when those kinds of abuses are manifested, you can better -- you better mark it down that there is going to be a response. But it's not necessarily -- it's not necessarily going to be the kind of response that you or any other American might expect.

BUCHANAN: But it's not the kind of response, Mr. Olson -- this is Bay Buchanan -- it's not the kind of response, at least in the McVeigh case, that you would have promoted either, is it?

OLSON: Oh, not at all. Listen, Bay, listen, the women and children of America are sacred trust. We have vowed to die for those precious families across this land. It seems totally unethical for us to in any way harm or injure the women and children, the noncombatants in all of this. It just doesn't make any sense.

BUCHANAN: But what about the men that were killed down there, the sons and the brothers?

OLSON: Noncombatants, noncombatants. I'm talking about soldiery. I'm talking about the art of warfare. You do not target noncombatants, and especially...

BUCHANAN: All right, fair enough -- I'm sorry, go ahead.

OLSON: Let me just say this: that when talk about targeting noncombatants, may I remind the American public that that's precisely what the federal government did to those 81 human beings in Waco, Texas. They were innocent human beings, and they were killed without mercy, without due process.

BUCHANAN: And on that point, I would agree with you entirely. But let me ask you: you have made a statement -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- that you would encourage, you would think is -- in fact, I think you used the words "it would be great, it would be super," if indeed we could have a confrontation between the federal government and the militia, the trained militia, the result being some 40, 50, 60, men killed. Why would that be something good, if indeed you made that statement?

OLSON: Well, I was reading Thomas Jefferson this afternoon and the wonderful book, "The Patriots," and the men who started revolution the American Revolution, and in there is a quote, again, that the tree of liberty must be nourished with the blood of patriots and tyrants from time to time.

I think we grow soft many times and take our ease. We fail to be vigilant, because the tyrants are still out there, the oppressors are still out there, and the best way to keep that edge, that keen edge of liberty sword ready is to have it drenched once in a while in the blood of tyrants and patriots.

PRESS: Mr. Olson, I am glad you wore your fatigues tonight, but the truth of it, as we introduced you earlier, you are the former commander of the Michigan militia.

OLSON: Correct.

PRESS: ... because there is nobody left to command. Isn't that true that the militia movement...

OLSON: No, no, that's not true.

PRESS: Isn't it true that the militia movement has run out of gas, except for a few wackos like you?

OLSON: Listen, Dan is going to be talking about that on "48 Hours" tonight. He wonders if there are other McVeighs out there.

Listen, I want people to listen, I want the people to consider, are there other Timothy McVeighs out there? If the United States government continues its treacherous ways, its abuses of power, yes, there are going to be responses, and those responses may be a butcher bill that the American people aren't willing to pay.

PRESS: But wait a minute! You just said you disassociate yourself with anything Timothy McVeigh did, and now you are saying there may be some other Timothy McVeighs out there. You can't have it both ways, Norm!

OLSON: I am giving you...

PRESS: I mean, either it's wrong, or it's not wrong.

OLSON: ... the reality -- hold on, hold on, just shut up for a minute, Bill! I'm gibing you the reality of the situation. I am telling you that as long as there are abuses of power, there will be responses to those abuses. I can't control...

PRESS: What does that mean?

OLSON: I can't control every one.

PRESS: What does that mean? What are you advocating?

OLSON: I'm not advocating anything. I'm trying to wake you up, I'm trying to tell you that there are some wing nuts out there who are going to break lose, and whatever they do, you better be prepared to accept the responsibility of it, because you haven't gone into the depths of corruption in the government. You haven't -- you haven't investigated the corruption! You haven't told the truth!

BUCHANAN: Mr. Olson, what are you -- you had a militia movement, it was very, very strong for a while there. It has certainly waned now, no question about that, you want it to come back. What is it you did when you had a militia movement, what did you all do that was constructive that would somehow turn around the abuses of government?

OLSON: Our -- listen -- our message was to shake the gun in the face of the tyrants. Our message was to the federal regime in Washington. It was not to scare the stuffings out of the American people, it was to put the tyrants on notice that there was an armed response.

BUCHANAN: But how?

OLSON: By organizing. Listen, we organized.

(CROSSTALK)

BUCHANAN: ... in preparation?

OLSON: Excuse me?

BUCHANAN: You had nothing -- was it just in preparation for fear that the government would move on you, or was it...

OLSON: Absolutely.

BUCHANAN: ... you were going to take action? You were just preparing, you were not planning on taking any action?

OLSON: Praise God! You broke the code, Bay, that's great! And this is what I'm trying to -- listen, listen, we are responsive, we are defensive. We are not offensive. We respect the need for government, but I will tell you what: we hate tyranny with a holy passion that goes all the way back to the founding fathers.

PRESS: Wait a minute, though. I mean, if you are out there running around in the woods with all these guns, I mean, why don't you just join a gym? I mean, what's that all about? I mean, come on, get serious!

OLSON: I bother you, don't I, Bill? You...

PRESS: Your whole movement bothers me.

(CROSSTALK)

OLSON: You can't deal -- you can't deal with the reality of it, and so you make jokes and you become humorous about it. You're worried, aren't you?

PRESS: I'm sorry I find it funny. No, but here's what I don't find funny is: that you say you don't support something like McVeigh did, but all -- don't you understand that there are some sick people out there, like McVeigh, who hear your words, who hear that rhetoric, who read your writings, and there are going to go out and do the same thing, and you my friend, are plants the seeds of that violence and killing those innocent women and children.

OLSON: Why don't you put me out of business, Bill. Why don't you...

PRESS: I think you put yourself out of business.

OLSON: No, no, no, listen. No, there is 10 more. I am taking out a picture, there will be 10 more here. But you can put me out of business. You can put the militia out of business in America today if you will go after the truth, if you will uncover the corruption and abuses of power that are going on every day in this United States.

BUCHANAN: Do you feel better, Mr. Olson, now that Clinton is gone and Bush is there?

OLSON: No, not at all! In fact, I shouted the alarm since last summer. I tried to wake up the American people that George Walker Bush is no friend of the constitution, nor is John Ashcroft. He is not as advertised.

His first official act as attorney general was to allow the IRS to go in to seize the Indianapolis Baptist temple, and that should give alarm to anyone, the first time the federal government has seized a large church in America. And many other, many other people are having their properties seized every day. And John Ashcroft and Bill Clinton, they sit there and do nothing. They don't even raise their hand to try to prevent it.

PRESS: OK, Mr. Olson, we disagree. We thank you for joining us...

OLSON: I'm glad I disagree with you, Bill.

PRESS: Well, so am I. So am I.

RaySouthwell
953
Points
RaySouthwell 06/13/12 - 08:57 am
0
1
Carver

Why is it, men do not want to admit their fear. I am in fear of my government because of their unchecked power both physical and economic.

I face my fears because of my faith in God, through Jesus Christ (sorry Raoulduke)

I think you have things mixed up. I am no tax evader, but those big corporations that pay no federal income tax and get rebates and bailouts are the evaders. Who determines the tax you pay?

More name calling from you- “Seriously unhinged” because I see things differently. You are not interested in discussing our differences only Ad Hominem attacks.

Militia history- all are members and leadership is elected. That is the historical fact and is the way it is.

Say, if the militia is so small why are gun sales at record levels? Why do you continue to have dialog here if the numbers are so small.

I am not aware of anyone, in the militia, who would not accept government if it was under the Rule of Law.

We the people, are under the rule of those, above the law. I think Raoulduke believes the same. He just accepts it as long as he gets his fair share.

What is “dangerously pathetic” is your acceptance of the abuses of government.

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