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A red herring in the gun control debate

Posted: January 14, 2013 - 8:39am

I lived in Alaska for 18 years beginning in 1967. I taught school in a variety of settings, flew airplanes, was in business, and babbled for a while in a column on these pages. There were ups, and downs. Since leaving, I’ve lived for a long time in several countries where guns are vigorously controlled (Australia, France, Ireland, China, and The United Kingdom). I have come to think the following is obviously true.

I have been a gun owner and hunter for over 50 of my 71 years. Hunting moose and caribou for the table, many of my days have been spent in areas of Alaska well populated by brown bear. Doing so, I have never felt I needed more than the five cartridges held in the magazine of my hunting rifle. Only once did I see another hunter bring a military style, assault rifle, to the field, only to be greeted with knowing smiles from more experienced riflemen. We wondered why the hunter didn’t spend time improving his marksmanship, instead of packing all those heavy extra bullets around in an area where one shot should be enough to kill the prey we were after.

There is a red herring being championed by the NRA and other gun fanatics, unscrupulous legislators, gun manufacturers and those in debt to them, and uninformed, inexperienced members of the press. It is the idea that it is too difficult, even impossible, to define the line separating weapons a private citizen has a legitimate need for, and right to have, from those for which there is no Constitutional, hunting, or self-protection justification for owning. That is nonsense.

We need to make a clear distinction between the firepower of law enforcement, and that of the general populace. That distinction protects the law abiding, and threatens those who are not. It will take many years to do the job completely. We have polluted our environment with millions of guns that should not be in private hands. Collecting them will take effort, education, and, from time to time, force. It should be a federal felony for a private citizen to possess any weapon capable of semiautomatic or fully automatic fire after a period of “No questions asked” opportunity to turn them in for disposal.

The Second Amendment was written at a time when the most powerful weapon a person could carry was a muzzle loading, smooth bore, flintlock long gun. Only an expert could fire it as many as four times a minute, and not for very long. Modern semiautomatic and fully automatic weapons are able to fire four to nine times a second. They may be fitted with magazines carrying one hundred or more cartridges available for purchase over the internet. No questions are asked beyond, “Credit card number?” That is a situation the civilized world legitimately calls “insane.”

We have already barred the private possession of fully automatic weapons except under strict registration requirements. They are almost never used in the commission of a crime. Regarding semiautomatic firearms, we have seen schools shot up, people cut down on the streets of our cities and university campuses, gun fights with our police forces that kill and injure public servants, and a broadening opinion among the populace that such weapons should be in their closet or desk drawer as the result of our toleration of their profusion. Many states now permit people to have such weapons hidden on their person. It is time to take a simply defined and politically demanding action to reduce substantially such scenarios, and partially redeem our standing among the civilized countries of the world.

We should immediately outlaw the private possession of any weapon capable of semiautomatic or automatic fire, and magazines for any firearm capable of holding more than six cartridges. Again, barring such weapons is entirely consistent with the citizens right under the Constitution to bear arms. Under such a law, a citizen could still lawfully possess revolvers, single shot weapons, pump action shotguns, and/or bolt, pump, or lever action rifles, even a muzzle loading, smooth bore, flintlock long gun. We would be prevented from being able to cut down trees, or huddled masses in a mall, with a burst from our “hunting rifle.”

We should be.

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potomac
191
Points
potomac 01/14/13 - 09:44 am
3
1
enough gun control already

There are too many facts to list here, we have plenty of laws which don't seem to be enforced, the so called civilized countries have tons of crime, and people are sent to prison for defending themselves in their own home. They have more police shot than here by far. In the 60's and 70's we threw out the mentally ill folks on the streets, cut off funding and still do. All of these folks are mentally ill that did these unthinkable killings and no gun control would stop it. There is a lot more to the constitution most average folks don't understand the reasons it was written which is why there are scholars out there who have studies it in depth and we have a strong hold on ALL these Amendments including the 2nd. No country including out own, no matter what tyrant became president would even think of taking on Americans thanks to the Second Amendment. Focus on funding the Mentally ill, change some of the laws like the one where a parent can't commit their own child once they are 14 years old, these parents have no where to go till what they know will happen happens, gun control is not the answer and you are uninformed if you think there is no crimes with guns in England, etc..

Watchman on the Wall
2893
Points
Watchman on the Wall 01/14/13 - 11:50 am
0
2
Jim Bishop of Drogheda, UK, (not Ireland)

You sir seem to be disallusioned first off of where your from or presently are. Ireland is no longer Ireland, it's the UK. Check out the riots against the UK by Irishman fighting to keep their Flag flying, a last remaining symbol of their society and notice that Dublin, Ireland, is now titled of Dublin, UK.
As for a Red Herring i would venture to say that WE AMERICANS can decide for ourselves how to avoid a REPEAT OF HISTORY PAST by dispots, Kings, Queens or Presidents or Global power freaks who wish to REINSLAVES US ALL.
I would like to add you along with CNN's Piers Morgan, another foriegn attacker of OUR AMERICAN CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS TO BEAR ARMS who personally said that ANYONE WHO BELIEVES IN THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS IS NO FRIEND OF HIS. My advise to him and you is go back where you came from and keep your opinion to your self concerning OUR FREEDOMS which you seemed to have enjoyed, like Piers, at our expence, while you escaped the very same Kingdom that OUR Forefathers & Mothers escaped from in the Beginning and WARNED US ALL that they would come back if we allowed them to do so.
When one sees the Governments desire to control all the Bullets, as well as all the Bandages & outlaw them for ALL OF THE FREE SOVERIEGN CITIZENS OF AMERICA, & ALL THE WORLD, then there is something amiss is it not?
You sir, Jim Bishop, along with your opinion against OUR FREEDOMS I question why, makes me say that i would trust as far as i could throw you along with your Red Herring. Thats my opinion of your idea on how we should stop all those who are affraid, huddled masses in malls or any where else. If we allow the Government or bad people to be the only ones with simi automatic weapons or any weapons for that matter whats to stop any of these mad men who seek to do harm and destroy others in their terror attacks ment for power & control of all that would submit?
Who would be totally stupid to listen to you are any like you is my question?
The answer is using your own ending "We would be."

Whats your opinion on Subways that people are shoved in front of and killed, should we outlaw these as it seems that the cases of these actions seem to be on the rise and MUST BE STOPPED? DO BACKGROUND CHECKS ON EVERYONE THAT MIGHT RIDE A SUBWAY MAYBE, OR OUTLAW SUBWAYS?
Evil will continue to spread as long as Good people stand by and allow it to do so and people like you are advocates of this EVILS spread GLOBALLY.
OH! Have a nice day and no thanks for your FORIEGN ATTACKS AGAINST OUR FREEDOMS.

Obfuscate
235
Points
Obfuscate 01/14/13 - 12:48 pm
3
2
Hypocrisy

Hello Mr. Pot, please meet Mr. Kettle!

Mr. Bishop – your opinion is so full of hypocrisy that I find myself chuckling as I write this. You claim the pro-gun advocates are using red herring ideas to argue their case, while you simultaneously use the same failed thinking to argue for an abolishment of anything capable of semi or automatic firing.

Fact – Outlawing firearms does not stop criminals from using them. Outlawing semiautomatic weapons will not “reduce substantially such scenarios”. They will only remove weapons from the hands of the law abiding public that has the natural god-given right to own whatever they choose so long as they are not hurting someone else. – This is your red herring.

If you refuse to see this, then you have clearly closed off your mind to the facts. If you prefer to live in a country where a free man is not truly free, then you have moved the right direction. I hope you are happy there and do not bring your mindset back.

Norseman
3616
Points
Norseman 01/14/13 - 01:25 pm
3
6
Spot on! I can relate very

Spot on!

I can relate very well to the author. I have been an NRA member for close to half a century. I have owned guns since I was 10 with the first one being a single shot 22. My father taught me to shoot and always said, one shot, one kill.

I started hunting at 12 and bagged my first deer, ducks, and pheasants.

Growing up in a hunting culture we knew we had the right to keep and bear arms. However, NEVER did anyone show up to go hunting with an assault rifle.

I served 3 years during the Viet Nam war and became familar with military weapons of all sorts. That is where they belong. With the military.
Limiting mags/clips to 10 rounds or less WILL make a difference. How much difference? If it saves just one 5 year old kids life than that is better than allowing mags that hold 100 rounds or more.

We had one whackjob that tried to baord a plane with a shoe bomb that NEVER went off, yet we all are forced to take off our shoes at every airport.

I am all for limiting the size of mags/clips to 10 rounds. I will never surrender nor give up any of my rifles, pistols, or shotguns to anyone, however I do believe that we need to restrict the size of mags/clips.

I see many cowards like Ted Nugent spewing vitriol about the 2nd amendment and freedom but I distinctly remember him refusing to serve our country during Viet Nam.

The Extremists have taken over my beloved Republican party and the NRA. I have now quit the NRA and no longer will support the Republican party.

Luvflyfishing
214
Points
Luvflyfishing 01/14/13 - 03:56 pm
0
1
Guns For Protection

I have guns for hunting and for protection. Hopefully, I will only use them for hunting.
I agree that assault rifles are not my idea of a gun collection.
However, I think the gun collectors have the right to choose what type of guns they want. Our problem is not the availabilty of the guns. The problem is the mentally disturbed people who have access to any type of weapon they want.
I believe that issue should be addressed before the govt threatens to take away all guns. I am very skeptical of what the government would do if they did ban certain types of guns. Would they stop there?
I have very little trust in Washington DC at this time. It seems
to be getting more ugly every day.

Obfuscate
235
Points
Obfuscate 01/14/13 - 04:53 pm
3
2
Careful

You may want to be careful of your comments Norseman; the hipocracy-monster is waiting to pounce. You are for limiting other people's rights to the firearms of their choice but you will never be willing to give up the firearms you own. Interesting.

And to use the authors term, you are applying a bit of red-herring yourself with the phrase "If it saves just one 5 year old kids life". Would you agree that banning all vehicles would be a proper thing to do? Far more kids die each year in vehicle related accidents than from firearms. If it just saves but one life, then it's worth it?

Losing high capacity magazines or semiautomatic firearms to save one life may be worth it to you because you have nothing to lose. Try replacing that freedom with one that you actually cherish then try to complete the sentence with the straight-face test.

The problem is not guns, it is people. Until the anti-gunners realize and focus their attention on this, the debate will rage on and a vast amount of resources will continue to be wasted in the wrong area.

Watchman on the Wall
2893
Points
Watchman on the Wall 01/14/13 - 04:53 pm
0
3
History of Assult weapons

As a senior who myself grew up with guns for hunting i also never saw anyone show up with assult weapons either, i did see simiauto rifles though for deer hunting. I also never saw any LE show up AFTER THE FACT with assult weapons back then either to clean up after EVIL people who wanted it their way had usually already did what they had intended to do.
Things have changed since those Good Old Days, as well as society and weapons owned by society, American citizens, Good or Evil, LE or Military. I promise you that if these weapons had been available back then then we would have had them like now.
My question since we are on this history trip, would you please tell me who it is that supplies $TRILLIONS$ along with massive numbers of ASSULT WEAPONS to criminals or freedom fighters GLOBALLY at a nonstop "FAST & FURIOUS" PACE? Who fianced Osama bin Laden to fight against Russia in Afgan? Who finances all the Islamic groups GLOBALLY now to fight against OUR Military?
The list is endless of who we are paying to fight against OUR SELVES AS WE SUPPLY THEM WITH MONEY & ARMS.
I don't own any assult weapons in the class of AR-15's, but i sure might buy one to be able to stand against all the EVIL we have supplied with these weapons GLOBALLY, the very same ones that hate and kill us nonstop world wide and have promised to FLY THEIR FLAG FROM OUR WHITE HOUSE, REPLACING OUR FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
I'M NOT A GLOBAL CITIZEN, NOR SHALL I EVER BE ONE LIKE OUR PRESIDENT CLAIMS HE IS & WANTS US ALL TO BE.
Don't waste ammo is my advice, thats the thing that will vanish before guns do and sharpen your Bayonets.
This is my humble American Indian, American African, American Irishmans opinion, that will never allow the UK, EU UN, American Govt. or anyone else forbid him from Flying his choice of Flags or owning Guns or Bibles.
Not looking for a fight or anti Govt. either one, just saying.
God help us all in America & GLOBALLY from this EVIL DREAM desired by many.

Suss
4189
Points
Suss 01/14/13 - 06:55 pm
0
1
Drogheda, Ireland

I have passed through this lovely Irish town, nothing but welcoming and pleasant folks,
it is near the Stone Age Passage Tomb at Newgrange. The locals in the pubs did warn of the problems with their "yobs".
The lack of firearms does not make for a lack of violent crime. The "Troubles" of Northern Ireland can attest to the many deaths without the need of firearms. So, Mr. James Douglas Bishop, thank you for your opinion and please stay safe in your belief that you are better off without American style weaponry. I think the crime rates here on the Peninsula are more comforting.

Thursday January 10 2013
A man in his twenties is still being questioned by Gardai after he was arrested following the apparently random stabbing of a schoolboy in Drogheda yesterday.

Seven stabbed in Drogheda Knife Attack
The Mayor of Drogheda Michael O'Dowd says this is one of the most shocking and violent incidents in the town centre in the past decade.

He says its now time to introduce a zero tolerance approach to knife crime and an increasing knife culture. "The Gardai as a matter of urgency need to be given the tools to fight this and that includes metal detectors which are being used successfully by police forces in the UK to locate concealed knifes and blades.

Knife culture is not only a problem of knives: it is also a problem for society, with people feel increasingly endangered.We all need to work together to overcome this."

Absolutely sickening attack in the heart of Drogheda Town last night , knife crime is still a major problem in this country , Drogheda is not really a place known for incidents of these nature on a friday or saturday night .. but it just shows you cant go anywhere nowadays without the risk of being the victim of a vicious attack attack, its hard to believe a 17 year old could be involved and is being questioned by police about the incident
10/04/2010 15:05:58
Vicious Rape Attack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRMwuaN2a0k

Death and mayhem on streets of Drogheda
The number of violent deaths in the town has led to a call for armed garda patrols on the streets of Drogheda.

Luvflyfishing
214
Points
Luvflyfishing 01/14/13 - 06:57 pm
1
0
Assault rifles

I was moose hunting on the west side of cook
Inlet in the 1990's.
I witnessed native Alaskans using AK-47's
To shoot all the moose they could find.
They shot cows as well as calves. It was
A sickening sight to see.
I agree they are not for hunting but some
People will do anything.

normolson
428
Points
normolson 01/14/13 - 08:13 pm
1
1
Read It Again

The 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with the present debate over gun control. Two indisputable truths need restating: 1. The God-given right to self defense is immutable. 2. The collective right of a free people to defend themselves against a tyrannical government is guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment.
As an individual, my right to keep and bear arms may be regulated as to the type and laws of the locale where I choose to live. A local government may make laws restricting things such as open carry, concealed carry, and the like. My voluntary decision to live under local ordinances pertaining to gun laws is my choice. If I don't like it, I should move. I must abide by local laws that govern INDIVIDUALS. The individual cannot claim he/she has a right under the 2nd Amendment to disobey the law that pertains to the individual.
But read the 2nd Amendment again: "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to security of a free state. . ." It speaks of a well-regulated militia. Read it again. Now think!
It sets forth the COLLECTIVE right of a well-regulated militia to arm itself as a defense against a central government authority that would threaten the freedom of the people. No well-regulated militia, either organized or unorganized HAS EVER BEEN DISARMED by the government. The well-regulated citizens militia (the unorganized militia) is the last option available to a free people to defend themselves when all other options fail. (see www.militiaguy.com for an explanation as to the other options)
It also follows that to defend against a tyrannical government, the well-organized militia MUST have parity with the agressive government authority. That means it may employ fully-automatic machine guns if it can afford them. Fortunately, with a force in the millions, the citizens militia feels itself able to stand against whatever force a tyrannical government can muster. It is estimated that the citizens militia has an overwhelming advantage in numbers. No well-regulated militia, either organized or unorganized has never had to surrender it's weapons, either semi-auto or fully auto. In fact, no court has never ordered such to take place. The 2nd Amendment guarantees that the citizens militia will never be ordered to surrender it's "teeth of liberty." It is doubtful that the central government could ever force it to.
There are many laws pertaining TO THE INDIVIDUAL, but the courts have avoided ruling against a well-regulated militia.

I have commanded and have been part of a well-regulated militia for more than 40 years. The first 20 was with the US Military (called the organized militia) and the last 20 with the well-regulated Citizens Militia (called the unorganized militia). Never once has law enforcement ordered the militia I commanded to do anything. Never once was a member of the militia I commanded arrested, detained, brought in for questioning, or imprisioned. Many who remained outside the well-regulated militia, thinking they were immune, or thinking they could hide under the 2nd Amendment are in prison today. The "lone-wolves," members of "leaderless resistance cells" and individual "wing-nuts" are easily found out and arrested.
Individuals who violate local ordinances may be subject to the law, but people collectively engaged in a well-regulated militia have the protection of the 2nd Amendment.

Read it again, "A well-regulated militia. . ." try to understand why it specifically states, "militia."

Sam Von Pufendorf
1088
Points
Sam Von Pufendorf 01/14/13 - 08:57 pm
0
0
Five year old lives

http://kidshootings.blogspot.com/2012/05/5-year-old-girl-nearly-killed-w...

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=282538

They'll be coming for your BB guns next.
How about the children of the inner city that are killed by handguns and knives every day? Are they less important than a five year old killed by an assault rifle? The assault rifle ban makes no sense.

Watchman on the Wall
2893
Points
Watchman on the Wall 01/14/13 - 10:28 pm
0
1
19 possible EXECUTIVE ORDERS TOMORROW

The King shall possibly make 19 Ex orders tomorrow possibly from BO and guns will be part of those orders.
If only we had people in schools, malls or theaters that would stand and say "LETS ROLL," in order to try & stop these evil people when they come to destroy lives by either stealing raping, killing or what ever. Stand up and fight this crap or it will spread like wildfire.
We protect everything else in the world with weapons and we can't protect or babies in schools or others or our selves with weapons, thats absolutely nuts and totally insane.
I will ask this has anyone seen these dead children from the CT school, what about the witness rescued in Benghazi, has anyone even seen them? Just wondering.
I ask this why is it that the media has not reported on the recent outbreaks of gun shooting by nuts being slowed down or stopped by Good Americans that are packing guns and stand up to their evil desires?? Quit a few of these American heros with guns fighting evil, just as those heros on the airliner that stood up and said "LETS ROLL," TO SAVE LIVES.
The Government does not give a flip about any of us, no matter which party we think makes us SPECIAL IN THEIR EYES, THEY DON'T CARE.
If you really cared about your children then you all would start packing and teach you children as well how to stand up against evil, not be affrqaid of evil or become evil due to all the nonstop brainwashing with violence at every turn and the Glorification of it. Protect youir own children and self along with others against evils spread, the Government is only wanted to help spread it to garner fear and crys of Government intervention, like the government really cares to stop evils spread. Wake up America's moms and dads and everyone else, they don't care about you or yours.

JDBishop5
182
Points
JDBishop5 01/15/13 - 02:45 am
1
1
For the record...

Neither Drogheda or Dublin are part of the United Kingdom, and have not been for many years. It's tough keeping up, I know. Northern Ireland is a different question.

On another point, using capital letters in a comment on an Internet forum is akin to yelling in a bar. It is not proof of being factual, or writing Ex Cathedra. It is boorish and scares sensible people, some of whom are armed.

BigRedDog
689
Points
BigRedDog 01/15/13 - 06:15 am
4
1
Nothing to do with hunting

Just to clarify, America's 2nd Amendment rights have absolutely NOTHING to do with hunting. It is not based upon a hunting heritage being the reason for it's existance. This is stated clearly to imply that citizen soldiers should be armed and ready to assist in the defense of our Nation. The father of our country General George Washington clearly rebuked a company of volenteers that showed up w/o their own guns. He said a functional malitia should be armed, and even lauded praise on a New York regiment that was armed with the latest and best rifles available. This statement adds strength to the claim that militias have the responsibility to be armed well enough to defend themselves in battle.
You see our Armies, heaven forbid; could lay crushed on some foreign shore and foreign troops could be storming our cities. And you would have me defending America limited by an old 12 ga. single shot shotgun or an old boltaction rifle that holds 5 shots? But no 20 or 30 round clips even if it might save my life in a gun battle. And make no mistake about it we are talking the defense of the life liberty and freedoms we all hold dear. To the point of not having this conversation about you limiting my 2nd amendment for some social agenda with out a thorough rebuke. You can take a hike! And that don't make you the QB.
You see it just aint happening, because their is an eliment of society today that will not obey the laws prohibiting criminals from gun posession. I really don't think these folks are going away, do you? The likelyhood of a home being armed deters crime.
This past hunting season 700,000 armed citizens took to the woods rifles in hand, in the state of Minn. The only fatality was a guy that fell out of a tree stand. This comprised the 6th largest armed force on earth. Throw in 600,000 in Wis., 1.2 million in Ohio, 1.3 in Indiana and another mere 450,000 in West Virginia and you have the largest army in the world! There were no fatalities due 20 to 30 rnd clips in any of these states.
The final nail in the gun Control Coffin is this, I will not be marched out in front of advancing troops armed with a pitchfork like over 2,000,000 Russian peasants were during WW2.

JDBishop5
182
Points
JDBishop5 01/15/13 - 08:03 am
2
0
'BigRedDog' needs to take some time and read this.

As does anyone interested in the origin of the Second Amendment's discussion of a 'well regulated militia.' It should particularly fascinate those who think it was written to control the central government. It was to control black people who were, at the time of its writing, not considered to be people.

Have a look.

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Bogus2.htm

Watchman on the Wall
2893
Points
Watchman on the Wall 01/15/13 - 09:19 am
0
1
JD Bishop Read it again

You need to read all opinions above that state we don't care how you do things in the UK, other than one from a Scandinavian Norseman. You can call it Ireland if you like, but, even simple minded yellers like me can see the writing on the wall of your not a Free Nation of Ireland.
If the second amendamant was a means of controling Black people before, which it was not, then it surely must be a means to control White people now by wanting to do away with it.
You see it is not a Racial thing, it's a Demonic thing and it's ment to CONTROL ALL COLORS & RACES OF PEOPLE.
Hope you realize that this Ignorante Protestant Bible packing, Gun toting, American Indian, American African, American Ireshman is not yelling when i say once again WE, I don't care how you do things over there, nor do we care what you think about the way we do things over here.
God warned us a Global society ruled by one King was coming, our Forefathers also warned us that if we fell asleep in preventing it's return that we also would once again be fighting against a KINGDOM that was ruled by a Monarch wishing to inslave us again to his rule of law, the very thing we escaped from in the beginning is returning, except it's coming on all of mankind now.
I personally will go with what God warned, as well as what our Forefathers warned, both being identical warnings and exactly what we see happening RIGHT NOW.
I know, why don't you go to the Pub and share your wealth of knowledge on FREEDOM there, but, be careful that you don't get sliced up by a knife handler for sharing your ideals of what Freedom is supposed to look like in a gun free Rock chunking zone that has absolutely no control of their own nation or parts of it any longer with the rest hanging in the balance.
Other than that, have a nice day Mate.

Norseman
3616
Points
Norseman 01/15/13 - 09:20 am
2
1
norm

Self appointed leader of the militia doesn't mean squat. Jim Jones was a self appointed leader as was david koresh, as was schaeffer cox.

If you think for one minute that if something were to happen here in our local area that you would somehow take command and control, you are so sadly mistaken.

BigRedDog
689
Points
BigRedDog 01/15/13 - 09:24 am
1
1
Go to the Movies lately?

Who painted the airplanes tailwings Red? How many Negro soldiers were on the confederate side in the Civil War? There were over 30,000 black or Buffalo Soldiers in arms on the Union side and many stayed in the Army and went West. I know there has been injustices heeped on the American Negro population. I hope these many wrongs have at least been partially made up for with the election of BHO. They will never be made right and history will forever record the great brutality of slavery in America.
But President Obama has been a major factor in leveling the playing feild for political consideration. So don't throw a race card into this debate. If you do please look at some of my forefathers who were excomunicated from thier church for running an underground railroad.
My Dad stomped three KKK recruiters in his front yard in Career Mississippi when they told him to join their group he would have to kill the first Black Man in Pearl River County to own land back in 1966. My Dad knew the Black man in question was a former Tuskegee Airman and took issue with the offer. He told them if that man died they better be looking for him as he would dammed sure be looking for them. He could be a very scary guy and phisycally he could just bring smoke, and walked through these three KKK jerks in under a minute. When they left he knew they didn't ever want to see him again. The former Airman lived to be an old man.

Watchman on the Wall
2893
Points
Watchman on the Wall 01/15/13 - 10:04 am
1
2
norseman

Why don't you go back to Norseland, i'll even throw in a $100, make it $200 for your trip back home.
As for anything happening here i hope & pray that it never does, but, i promise you this norseman you sir will not be on the right Freedom fighting side, now will you? Nor shall you DECIDE who is helping, or leading us fight for our freedoms that are on the Right side.
You Sir are what is known as a Slow learner, with an inability to comprehend TRUTH or RIGHTIOUSNESS in this Human Battle against Evil, Evil that uses people to accomplish it's end game of distruction ment for ALL OF US. In fact i would say that you are an Inablier of this Evils spread.
We are all very aware of which side of the Battle you will stand on when our Freedoms are brought into question any day now. Your words have revealed this to all of us that your desire is for Evil Democracy to spread Globally controlling all and your nonstop fighting against all others that don't support your Evil Democracy are classed as your enemies.
We all know how you feel about OUR FREEDOMS, or anyone that voted differantly than you for your Messiah and if you think you will lead any of us then you Sir are sadly mistaken as well.
Have a nice day though and remember Jesus loves ya in this TWO SIDED BATTLE of Good & Evil and we all want you on the Right Side.
You can't have it BOTH WAYS, either you give up OUR Freedoms, guns, or you fight with others not to give up OUR rights, One side or the other in this Global fight against Evils spread.
As for all you supposedly gun haters, when the shi% hits the fan and people start using guns to kill or control you removing your wonderful rights you know have, then i promise you you'll be begging for a Good person to show up and help save you BECAUSE the Local LE or Military will not be large enough to get-r-done, but, WE THE PEOPLE WILL.
It's coming BACK to America, for all of us and we have been WARNED by God and Forefathers alike.

kksalm
247
Points
kksalm 01/15/13 - 10:19 am
0
0
Jim Jones and the reference of self appointed

The drinking koolaid scenario has another side

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/Jonestown.html#ALJR

The little blue things that show up on the above page are links to sources to verify statements made within. Jim Jones was much more than a "self appointed leader".

http://www.sott.net/article/169344-The-Lesson-of-Jonestown#

Have a nice day.

Obfuscate
235
Points
Obfuscate 01/15/13 - 11:01 am
1
1
Sidetracking

As the bickering and finger-pointing continues, so does the deviation from what is truly important.

I live in the United States of America. I am a productive member of society without a criminal record. I presume myself to be a free man.

I don’t have the right to defend myself because I am free; I am free because I accept the responsibility of defending myself.

If you choose to relinquish your responsibility to defend yourself, that is your choice; however in doing so you must also accept that you are relinquishing a portion of your freedom.

I do accept the responsibility of defending myself and I will do so with whatever tools I deem appropriate; I will not relinquish my freedom.

The "Government" - that is supposed to be by the people for the people - should never ask me to relinquish my freedom.

This is very simple.

Watchman on the Wall
2893
Points
Watchman on the Wall 01/15/13 - 11:53 am
0
2
Yor right JDBishop

As i have said many times before and will restate for your amusement there JD, i'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer when it comes to spelling and punctuation. But, it sure does not take a very groomed person in grammer or such to know when someone is trying to BS me into submitting to things that are ment to do harm and control others by EVIL means.
If it's alright with you i'll go with what the Lord says about smart or not so smart and when the final judge makes his verdict on each.
As a simple child i believe and accept the things God said was coming for the last days with a Global Union which has ABSOLUTE control of Everyone and Everything. OH! It sure looks like OUR Forefathers of this FREE America were also looking ahead to the Future and gave WARNINGS just as God did of the very same Governmental desire to ABSOLUTELY CONTROL ALL.
I'm sorry that your not smart enough to read my words or establish my point from those words being as smart or as learned as you wish you were.
Have a GR8 Day and keep practicing your comprehention of what people say or write in what ever form it come in, as i also do daily practice on spelling and punctuation or grammer.
We will all learn someday who is smart and who is stupid, now want we all?
I think i'll write a new Irish song due to my Irish ancestry called "Irish Eyes are Crying," due to their demise as a soveriegn nation subject to Kings & Queens wishes for control supported by people like you.
But thanks for the advice and pointing out my character flaws, the ones that i already knew of and am working on daily. In reality JD, it's not the messangers spelling or punctuation or grammer that you struggle with, but, it's my message of WARNINGS for all to be Watchman looking out for people like you with your messages wanting to restrict Freedoms of all kinds. Get my point here Mr Worldly Wise?

My advice is for Americans to save their bullets, thats where the shortages will accure to try and render us helpless and unable to defend ourselves against EVILS desire to restrict our freedoms of religion or soveriegn rights afforded us under our Constitution that keeps us from joining a Global Union of ONE.

Another shooting in MO. just now and LE showed up after the facts and are walking around in circles pretending to be doing some sort of good in protecting others.
Not against LE or Military OATH Takers, who took the OATH to defend OUR Constitution, not the people. We are supposed to stand and defend people against attacks against each other by EVIL people who want things their way, not the LE or Military.
WE THE PEOPLE have given up our rights and allowed governments and judges to protect us when that is not their end game due to their being controled by this worlds evil demonic world systems ruled by the god of this present world.

normolson
428
Points
normolson 01/15/13 - 12:08 pm
0
1
Natural Right Of Self Defense

BigRedDog, I really appreciate your input.

Every human being has the right to defend him/herself. That is a basic right. Whether you choose to live in a locale that restricts your right to use a gun is a choice you make. Just as a business place has the right to place a sign on the door "Do Firearms," so do we have the right to do business there.
But that's the individual right.
The 2nd Amendment is not about individual rights, but the collective right of free people to arm themselves in a well-regulated militia. "Well-regulated" means well-trained and disciplined in the art of warfare to best insure the ability of that group to retain and defend their liberty.
Have you noticed that in all the debates going on in the media, no one wants to address what the 2nd Amendment is really about?
A well-regulated militia made up of citizen-soldiers is called the UN-organized militia (that is, it is not part of the central government's organizational plan) A well-regulated militia made up of professional soldiers (part of the government) is called the organized militia.
The 2nd Amendment was added to give a collective group of people the guarantee that they will be able to defend themselves against the government, should that government become an actual threat to their liberty.
The well-regulated militia is not led by "self-appointed" leaders. Leaders are chosen and voted on by the group based on experience, knowledge, ability, and other leadership qualities. Those who are members obey "for conscience sake." They are not threatened with the brig or KP or demotion. Members may leave at any time they wish. (This actually happened among G. Washington's militia).
While the organized government militia is motivated by rank, pay, benefits, etc. (external motivators) the unoranized militia is motivated by internal motivators (duty, vision, love).
For this reason, the rise of the citizens militia occurs when the threat of tyranny emerges. As the threat grows, so grows the citizens militia. We saw this in the days of Clinton and Reno... we're seeing it happen again today. (see the statistics at the Southern Poverty Law Center's website).
WE THE PEOPLE are frightened of what the central government is doing. Individuals are buying firearms at record rates. If they want to keep their guns, they should join the citizens militia.
It is time for individuals to form well-regulated militia units in order to avoid prosecution. Militia units are lawfully and legally permitted to carry the most advanced weapons they can afford. No court has ever ordered a militia unit to surrender its weapons or to stand down. The British tried to do this at Lexington and you can read from history what happened next.
The 2nd Amendment isn't about hunting, nor is it about individuals' right to keep and bear arms. It is about the guarantee that the well-regulated citizens militia will be able to stand against a tyrannical government.

normolson
428
Points
normolson 01/15/13 - 01:28 pm
0
1
Avoid The Gun Grab -- Join The Militia

I sold weapons to Norman Somerville. I also warned him that being a lone wolf would get him into trouble. He refused my advice. Here's what happened to him:

In 2003, Norman Somerville, loaded with weapons and seething with militant urgency, was prepared to make something happen in rural Northern Michigan. A Special Forces veteran linked to militia cells, Somerville was fed up and itching for a showdown. Police had recently killed Scott Woodring, a fellow militia member, in a shootout as they attempted to arrest him for the killing of a state trooper. Woodring's death touched off angry web-postings among militia sympathizers and galvanized Somerville to strike at police. On a 40-acre compound outside the hamlet of Mesick, he plotted what prosecutors would later describe as "a violent militia conspiracy" to avenge Woodring's death. Somerville fortified his property, built an underground bunker, and collected machine guns and thousands of rounds of ammunition. He kept photographs of President George W. Bush and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, with the crosshairs of rifle scopes drawn over their faces. Above the ground, hidden by tree limbs, Somerville positioned a massive anti-aircraft gun that he trained on the approach to his property. And he readied the pride of his arsenal—vehicles he referred to as the twin "war wagons." Somerville had outfitted his Jeep and van with M1919 .30 caliber machine guns capable of emptying 550 rounds in a minute. The Jeep, with its passenger seat removed, boasted a mounted gun turret. Somerville planned to use the Jeep to cause a traffic accident and then to open fire on police when they arrived at the scene. In late 2003, authorities learned that Somerville was about to carry out his plan, and they moved in. He was convicted on weapons charges and sentenced to six and a half years in prison. In court, prosecutors called the rural handyman a "psychologically deranged man who was armed to the teeth, filled with hate, high on dope and had his finger on the trigger." After his arrest, Somerville said he had handed out or traded illegal machine guns to others, and he warned authorities of a network of "shadowy rebels" preparing for "a quiet civil war" in rural Michigan.
(from http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/November-December-2005/feature_gagnon...)

Had he joined the Michigan Militia, his fate would have been averted.

Obfuscate
235
Points
Obfuscate 01/15/13 - 02:01 pm
1
1
Even further off topic

But I will comment anyway Mr. Olson.

His fate may also have been averted if he had not spiraled into a psychologically deranged man, full of hate and high on dope. If the drug comment is true, then it may have happened in reverse order.

Please don't lump those with a desire for keeping their freedom(peacfully if at all possible) with those that are lacking common sense and self-discipline.

Those few people who have abused the second amendment are the primary reason there is such a bad taste in most peoples mouths when the topic is brought up. Just like those few deranged people that have abused the use of firearms have twisted the nations view of firearms.

If a citizens militia is truly ever needed, it will form practically overnight, when the situation demands. Boasting about forming a militia and bragging about how well prepared it is will only incite more fear from the irresponsible and unprepared.

JDBishop5
182
Points
JDBishop5 01/15/13 - 02:13 pm
1
3
@Obfuscate

Well said. As a sensible fellow, I trust you would agree that neither you or your neighbor should have some Nukes rolling around in your basement just because you and your neighbor like them, and might be able to afford them. If we can agree on the general principle that a line must be drawn between Atomic Bombs and private arsenals, there are other weapons we should consider as well. Poison gas? Jet fighters? Intercontinental missiles? Fully automatic weapons? I am suggesting that we adjust the line downward enough to include semiautomatic firearms as well. It is a simple principle. The police should be able to have better weapons than the ordinary citizen may possess. That's why we hire them. To protect us from idiots that want to parade around with semiautomatic weapons that can kill us by the carload.

JDBishop5
182
Points
JDBishop5 01/15/13 - 02:18 pm
2
0
Once again...

I call your attention to this learned article on the history of the Second Amendment.

It should particularly fascinate those who think it was written to control the central government. It was to created to control black people who were, at the time of its writing, not considered to be people.

Have a look.

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Bogus2.htm

Obfuscate
235
Points
Obfuscate 01/15/13 - 03:23 pm
1
1
Amusing but not fitting

Those are amusing analogies Mr. Bishop; amusing but not fitting. It is very easy for a person with a fully automatic rifle to retain the right of safe ownership with very minimal risk to his neighbor. Nukes rolling in the basement….not so much. If you want to draw a line, then you need to compare apple to apples; not apples to brandy.

And again – you continue to have your mind completely closed off to the truth. Criminals don’t play by the rules; they don’t follow the law. Open your mind. Preventing “the ordinary citizen” from possessing semiautomatic rifles will not ever stop criminals from obtaining them.

“To protect you from idiots that want to parade around with semiautomatic weapons” – Are you lumping ordinary citizens and criminals into the same group? Are you of the mindset that all owners of semiautomatic weapons are guilty? Maybe you have a very personal and irrational fear that prevents you from seeing clearly?

Shall we also ban all vehicles capable of exceeding the speed limit? That way the police have faster vehicles than ordinary citizens possess. To keep them out of the hands of the idiots that want to parade around with vehicles that can kill others by the carload (literally).

You expect that a book written by a self proclaimed gun control advocate is going to prove anything. That is his opinion and he is free to have it, that does not make it fact. But the second amendment is not the issue in our discussion; being free is. You are free to lump everyone who owns a semiautomatic weapon into a criminal group just moments away from killing the whole planet and I am free to hold my semiautomatic weapon while I feel sorry for you because your fear has made you irrational.

Watchman on the Wall
2893
Points
Watchman on the Wall 01/15/13 - 04:22 pm
1
2
surrounded by children executive orders will come

Tomorrow our president will put forth a few executive orders while surrounded by children, one being gun control and the restriction against guns of a certain type which the second amendment has nothing to say about size or types. Are we to assume that these same people that tried to warn us to watch out for people like Obama in the future were so dumb that they did not realize that as time went on weapons or guns would not change or advance for better ones than they had then?
I tried to ask this question around 2 hrs ago concerning the supposed safety of Americas children coming from Obama or anyone in the American Government.
My question was how can Obama and others fain concern for children when they wholeheartedly support nonstop abortions.
A quote from Thomas Jefferson for our foriegn friend in his Free Ireland.
"When we get piled upon one another in large cities. as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe."
Sounds about right as we pile on each other, does it not?
They don't care for our children or for any of us, not even fellow Democrates who blindly follow their lead off the cliff as a Soveriegn Nation of Free people headed towards a Global society of ONE.
We will surely see tomorrow just who the Devil we allowed to rise to power really is as he shoves us towards his DREAM.

Sam Von Pufendorf
1088
Points
Sam Von Pufendorf 01/15/13 - 08:14 pm
3
0
Mr Bishop

First, I respect your opinion concerning gun control as such debate is what has developed our country from its inception. Even though I respect your opinion does not mean I necessarily agree with it.

You had stated in your article that you had taught school in a variety of settings. As an educator, you are aware that one of the hardest subjects to teach is history. It isn't at all like math (where 2+2 is always 3) or english (i before e except after c) or any other number of subjects. History has no hard fast rules. It is written by a person with his or her pre-conceived opinion. As is often stated "history concerning war is written by the victor." History is taught on a perception and an opinion mixed with the facts as we see them in order to support our arguments concerning history. If one was to read a supportive biography of Aaron Burr and another of Alexander Hamilton one would have a hard time finding the villain in that point of history. Perception has little to do with actual history.

In short, your link was written by a person interpreting his perception of the founding fathers intent concerning the 2nd amendment. Mr Olson has his interpretation of their intent.

Logically speaking, you can blame an abundance of guns and bullets for killing innocent people. But one would then also have to blame pens for writing bad checks thus stealing innocent peoples hard earned money. The gun is a tool that can not function without an operator.

You sound like you are an educated, well read, opinionated man and I would encourage you to read "A Peoples History of the United States." It is, as its title suggests, a peoples version of US history. Not written by founding fathers, but letters and articles written by ordinary people of the times.

"We should immediately outlaw the private possession of any weapon capable of semiautomatic or automatic fire, and magazines for any firearm capable of holding more than six cartridges." This too is illogical in my mind. If six children were to die as a result of a revolver, should we then reduce the magazine size to three bullets? Are you suggesting a 45 ACP handgun be illegal as their magazine hold beyond the illogically prescribed six cartridges and they are semi-automatic? Not only is this illogical, in practical terms, this would be impossible to achieve.

I personally am not in favor of any more formidable gun restrictions and see very little sense in enacting laws that puts criminals at a further advantage. We disagree! However, logical and civil debate will get more results than illogical rants laced with personal attacks. We already see how well that type of argument works in Washington ... It doesn't. Congress has proved it!

Thank you for provoking thought. Such discussions will help move our country forward and who knows? We may even educate each other a little bit. But in order to do that, minds must be opened.

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