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A red herring in the gun control debate

Posted: January 14, 2013 - 8:39am

I lived in Alaska for 18 years beginning in 1967. I taught school in a variety of settings, flew airplanes, was in business, and babbled for a while in a column on these pages. There were ups, and downs. Since leaving, I’ve lived for a long time in several countries where guns are vigorously controlled (Australia, France, Ireland, China, and The United Kingdom). I have come to think the following is obviously true.

I have been a gun owner and hunter for over 50 of my 71 years. Hunting moose and caribou for the table, many of my days have been spent in areas of Alaska well populated by brown bear. Doing so, I have never felt I needed more than the five cartridges held in the magazine of my hunting rifle. Only once did I see another hunter bring a military style, assault rifle, to the field, only to be greeted with knowing smiles from more experienced riflemen. We wondered why the hunter didn’t spend time improving his marksmanship, instead of packing all those heavy extra bullets around in an area where one shot should be enough to kill the prey we were after.

There is a red herring being championed by the NRA and other gun fanatics, unscrupulous legislators, gun manufacturers and those in debt to them, and uninformed, inexperienced members of the press. It is the idea that it is too difficult, even impossible, to define the line separating weapons a private citizen has a legitimate need for, and right to have, from those for which there is no Constitutional, hunting, or self-protection justification for owning. That is nonsense.

We need to make a clear distinction between the firepower of law enforcement, and that of the general populace. That distinction protects the law abiding, and threatens those who are not. It will take many years to do the job completely. We have polluted our environment with millions of guns that should not be in private hands. Collecting them will take effort, education, and, from time to time, force. It should be a federal felony for a private citizen to possess any weapon capable of semiautomatic or fully automatic fire after a period of “No questions asked” opportunity to turn them in for disposal.

The Second Amendment was written at a time when the most powerful weapon a person could carry was a muzzle loading, smooth bore, flintlock long gun. Only an expert could fire it as many as four times a minute, and not for very long. Modern semiautomatic and fully automatic weapons are able to fire four to nine times a second. They may be fitted with magazines carrying one hundred or more cartridges available for purchase over the internet. No questions are asked beyond, “Credit card number?” That is a situation the civilized world legitimately calls “insane.”

We have already barred the private possession of fully automatic weapons except under strict registration requirements. They are almost never used in the commission of a crime. Regarding semiautomatic firearms, we have seen schools shot up, people cut down on the streets of our cities and university campuses, gun fights with our police forces that kill and injure public servants, and a broadening opinion among the populace that such weapons should be in their closet or desk drawer as the result of our toleration of their profusion. Many states now permit people to have such weapons hidden on their person. It is time to take a simply defined and politically demanding action to reduce substantially such scenarios, and partially redeem our standing among the civilized countries of the world.

We should immediately outlaw the private possession of any weapon capable of semiautomatic or automatic fire, and magazines for any firearm capable of holding more than six cartridges. Again, barring such weapons is entirely consistent with the citizens right under the Constitution to bear arms. Under such a law, a citizen could still lawfully possess revolvers, single shot weapons, pump action shotguns, and/or bolt, pump, or lever action rifles, even a muzzle loading, smooth bore, flintlock long gun. We would be prevented from being able to cut down trees, or huddled masses in a mall, with a burst from our “hunting rifle.”

We should be.

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Obfuscate
235
Points
Obfuscate 01/24/13 - 08:49 am
2
0
In case of suspected troll, try google.

If you'd like to see for yourself, try googling the handle used on this forum. As you will see, someone has created accounts on copious amounts of news sites in order to post his opinion. On those sites where no one replied to his 'opinion', he was oddly silent after initial post. But his comments are enlightening on his personallity. There is no reason to argue freedoms with a liberally educated atheist elitist that believes he knows everything. I do find it humorous that he feigned support for legal gun ownership afterfinding this quote he posted on another forum - "watch out for the lunatics that claim the Second Amendment, written for smooth bore, muzzle loading long rifles reloadable by an expert only four times a minutes, also applies to modern semiautomatic rifles that can be fired four to six times a second, and be fitted with a magazine containing one hundred rounds. Those people are dangerous and should be wearing a bell around their necks." So he would not answer my question directly, but now he doesn't need to.

JDBishop5
182
Points
JDBishop5 01/24/13 - 09:13 am
0
2
@Obfuscate

Thanks for finding and reprinting that. I stand by every word.

BigRedDog
689
Points
BigRedDog 01/24/13 - 09:39 am
1
0
Draconian outcomes

Please explain why the state of Mass. feels it necessary to stop law abiding citizens traveling say I-95 to Maine. Pull them over for no reason but to check if perhaps they thought it leagal to transport their locked in a box unloaded shotguns through Mass. Then jail them for two days, while neglecting their valued hunting dogs in the travel kennels . The dogs died of heat exposure and the men were harassed and abused when they protested that in 60 miles they would be out of Mass.
This is just one example of the outcome of states vilolating the gun rights of neighboring citizens in their zeal to have Total Gun Control. I got a thousand of them, and many so unneeded as to galvanize citizen gun owners from trusting anyone esposing Gun Control. Now the coast seems clear to the gun grabbers that for whatever life experience, hate firearms and detest gun owners in general. I am not comfortable seeing those gun owners who for whatever life experience will not be disarmed collectively made criminals via aborting America's 2nd Amendment.

Raoulduke
3084
Points
Raoulduke 01/24/13 - 10:22 am
1
0
JDB

My previous posting was not intended for you.I addressed it to Norm

Luvflyfishing
214
Points
Luvflyfishing 01/24/13 - 11:15 am
1
0
YouTube

If you like to have firsthand info straight
From the mouth of JD Bishop, check out his
radical views on his YouTube. You will even
Have the honor to see his ugly mug.
If you have lived in Alaska from at least
1967 forward, it will bring back memories
of him during those times. He was just
as radical then as he is now. Albeit, the years
have taken its toll

Norseman
3616
Points
Norseman 01/24/13 - 12:08 pm
1
2
Fortunately for our

Fortunately for our community, the FBI and Homeland Security are keeping a vigilant eye on the nikiski militia.

They are aware of there presence and I am sure are prepared to deal with them if the time ever comes.

They did a fantastic job watching the fairbanks militia and the terrorists are now serving lengthy prison sentences without the loss of any innocent lives.

My hear goes pitter patter just knowing that our brave men and women in law enforcement are keeping close tabs on em.

Raoulduke
3084
Points
Raoulduke 01/24/13 - 01:29 pm
1
0
exec. orders

Where are they?

kenai123
1322
Points
kenai123 01/24/13 - 02:20 pm
2
1
JD just wants all your guns

JD you can argue all day and night that folks in the U.S.A. don't need or want whatever weapon. It doesn't matter if your anti gun target is an automatic or semi-automatic firearms.
Either may be your target today but tomorrow your target will be guns with 3 bullets or shotguns or just handguns. My point is that you will ALWAYS have another firearms target.
The only time there will not be a new gun type target is if all guns are gone. That is your final destination regardless as to what you admit to. That specifically means that you are lying. To not be lying you would have to admit the truth and the truth is that you are NOT looking to remove a single type of firearm. The truth is that you are looking to remove guns period. You will not admit this truth because you perceive that the frog may jump out of the pan, which is having its heat slowly increased.

I know that if I were claiming a lie like this, my conscious would bother me later so I would not do it in the first place but it appear that JD lacks a conscious. If JD valued truth he would just admit his complete 100% gun removal goal and be done with it. Everyone would freak out, click "ignore" and be done with him. But because he claims the lie that his intentions are for only a little this or that today, he is allowed to raise the temperature of the water a couple degrees ever so slowly so that the "Alaska gun carrying public frog" won't jump out of his frying pan. JD is lying, he is not an honest person and that is no doubt the reason he bailed from Alaska in the first place because we figured him out so he had to go bother someone else.

Norseman
3616
Points
Norseman 01/24/13 - 03:32 pm
1
1
>>>>JD is lying, he is not an

>>>>JD is lying, he is not an honest person and that is no doubt the reason he bailed from Alaska in the first place because we figured him out so he had to go bother someone else<<<<<<<

Wow!
Comments like that are what got wow kicked off.

Obvious you disagree with the man but to call him a liar and not an honest person when you don't even know him is an ad hominen attack.

normolson
428
Points
normolson 01/24/13 - 08:09 pm
0
1
Huh?

Raoulduke,

What offends me is a central government that labels returning G.I.s as domestic terrorists. What offends me is a central government that says that returning soldiers are banned from owning firearms because of PTSD related problems. What offends me is closing the doors for the kind of help many of these warriors need.
And don't preach to me about what degree of PTSD you or others have. I spent my time in counselling, trying to deal with things THEN and NOW. I still take my meds and sit in front of my happylight. . .and I do it all while cleaning weapons and reloading ammo. According to the central government, I should not be able to own weapons. Well, gee wiz, Beav, MOLON LABE!
At the Mud Creek Anti-terrorism Training Facility, we had plenty of Viet Nam vets. They served as our expert trainers.
We found that the best therapy for returning vets was to get them back in the saddle...put a rifle in their hands...get them down in the mud... WITH OTHERS WHO NEED THEIR EXPERTISE. These vets are valuable and can teach the citizen soldier much.
Those guys and gals coming home NEED to join up with other citizen soldiers. Working with others FOR A REASON FAR MORE IMPORTANT THAN PROJECTING THE POWER OF U.S. CORPORATE GREED!!!!!
You want to help these guys? Tell them WHO sent them into the sand? Tell them the truth who they were REALLY bleeding and dying for! Let them get good and angry at the puppet-masters and when they get it figured out, get them into a militia where they can project their righteous indignation.

Norseman
3616
Points
Norseman 01/24/13 - 08:57 pm
2
0
huh?

.........."Let them get good and angry at the puppet-masters and when they get it figured out, get them into a militia where they can project their righteous indignation.........."

Kinda like Timothy McVeigh?

JDBishop5
182
Points
JDBishop5 01/25/13 - 12:10 am
1
1
JDBishop5
182
Points
JDBishop5 01/25/13 - 10:38 am
0
1
Bad news for wackos...

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/david/feds-ex-marine-right-wing-mani...

A taste...

'A Colorado man, who said that he was an ex-Marine and claimed a "right-wing declaration of independence/constitutionalist political manifesto," built improvised explosive devices (IEDs) to trade for cocaine and hoarded several military-style assault weapons that may have been converted to machine guns, the Department of Justice said on Thursday.

According to an affidavit, federal agents with the Bureau of Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) raided the home of Richard Lawrence Sandberg in Jefferson County on Thursday after he provided an undercover agent with homemade bombs.'

Raoulduke
3084
Points
Raoulduke 01/25/13 - 11:51 am
0
1
strife

Proudly states 20 years of service to the puppet master.Then condemns the hand that gives the retirement check.Now that is internal strife.

Raoulduke
3084
Points
Raoulduke 01/25/13 - 12:34 pm
0
1
bad move

Norm
What makes you dangerous is.You think you are helping these vets.All you are doing is keeping them in a war mindset,and not allowing them to truly come home.I know.I am right about this.When one goes off the deep end at one of your outings.The law suit will take care of the rest.Just do not stop taking your meds.

normolson
428
Points
normolson 01/25/13 - 05:25 pm
0
0
Raoulduke -- Back At It

You disrepected my service last year as you're doing again now. I told you last year that I wasn't going to "show you mine" when you boasted that you had combat time and I didn't. My DD214 is available for anyone to see. The job I did was to cover the ground-pounder's butts with heavy air support. No, I'm no Audy Murphy, just another member of the vast support element that got you guys in and out safely and buzzed you with F-111's, F-4s, and B-52s so that you COULD come back. Put me down? No combat soldier in his right mind would put down another military vet, be he a cook, mechanic, medic, or postal worker. I honor your service time and your commitment. Is it too much to expect the same respect?
So, I'm sorry that I won't play the "show-me-your's" game.
I did my time with more than 20 years in.
It was years after Vietnam that I learned the REAL reasons for our being there. The central government, backed by huge corporations in the industrial/military complex sent 58,159 boys and girls to their deaths. Me and my family went through a lot for this country and you have the gall to question whether I deserve a pension? You gotta be kiddin.
You don't act like or speak like a vet. Brothers in arms don't do what you're doing.

Luvflyfishing
214
Points
Luvflyfishing 01/25/13 - 06:09 pm
0
0
Normolson

Thank you very much for serving out country. I have the highest respect for all Military men and women who risked their lives so we could have our freedom.
God Bless you and your family!

Raoulduke
3084
Points
Raoulduke 01/26/13 - 04:45 am
0
0
back at you

Norm
If you feel I have disrespected you,or service.I do apologize.
I never requested any"show me yours".I do know the difference between direct combat and not.You were support.Yes! I did very much appreciate air support.More than once it was the difference for many.I believe.You are wrong in your approach to helping vets. Anti-Terrorism Training Facility?Placing combat vets in a situation that could trigger a "flashback" Is counter productive.You may feel better while you think you are helping these vets,but chances are you are probably the only one.They won't admit truly how your helping affects them until after the training sessions,and they have gone home.I have commented because of your post titled Huh.You have your trend of thinking,and I have mine.You think you are right.I just believe.You are wrong in your approach.

normolson
428
Points
normolson 01/26/13 - 02:22 pm
0
0
Floating The Delta

The training facility I set up was located deep in the forests and swamps of northern Michigan. In the summer, the bugs, wetness, and constant heat put a strain on all of the trainees.
One morning, about 0600, we were returning from an all-night exercise. We were floating the Black River using individual floatation, geared up, greased up, and weapons ready, bringing back our "Private Ryan" full size and weight dummy on a raft constructed from what we could find supported by ponchos made into floats, tied to each corner of the make-shift raft. Two squads went out the night before, bivouacing deep in the swamp/forest. At 0430 we attacked the prison camp and killed everyone in it.
Floating out of the swamp, down the Black River, at 50 ft. intervals, in the hanging fog, with the strange sounds of birds, made one of the vets freak out. For a while he WAS back in nam, floating some delta waterway, bringing out a wounded comrad.
The experience was shocking to him, but afterward he realized that he had his own squad to think about. He later told us that had it not been for the others, he probably would have died of fright since the flash back was so strong.
During debrief, he spoke about nam and what caused him to freak out that morning. He thanked everyone for "bringing him back from the edge of his fears."
That's the kind of therapy I deal with. These guys are NOT alone and until they face their fears in the presence of others, they'll be forever running from their demons.
I've been in this militia business for 20 years now. It's something that is potentially life-theatening. Dangers abound every time I face down the feds, anarchist groups, or other "enforcers." I am always surprised by the numbers of people who call themselves patriots who are too frightened to stand even when the threat is small.
Jeremiah 12:5 says, "If racing against mere men makes you tired, how will you race against horses? If you stumble and fall on open ground, what will you do in the thickets near the Jordan?" If we sink under small difficulties, what will we do when great ones come? If we will not stand against a small injustice, what will we do when tyranny unleashes its fury?
I'm a trainer, urging people to face their fears with courage. That's all.
The media and many others call me an ANGRY white man with a grudge. I suppose I am angry, but that's far better than being frightened of phantoms and shadows.

JDBishop5
182
Points
JDBishop5 01/27/13 - 03:07 am
0
1
Recent remarks of our President regarding gun control...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/27/us/politics/obama-says-gun-control-adv...

A taste...

'WASHINGTON – President Obama said that he and his guests go skeet shooting at Camp David “all the time” and that gun control advocates need “to do a little more listening” to understand why so many Americans are wary of government limits on firearms.

In an interview released Sunday morning, Mr. Obama acknowledged that getting his package of gun proposals through Congress could be tough, and he expressed empathy for the strong sentiments of gun owners. Like Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr., who has mentioned that he owns two shotguns, Mr. Obama tried to associate himself with those who enjoy firing guns.

Take a moment and read this through for a lark.

“Up at Camp David, we do skeet shooting all the time,” he told The New Republic in the interview, conducted Jan. 16, just after he unveiled his gun proposals.

Asked about his family, he said, “Not the girls, but oftentimes guests of mine go up there. And I have a profound respect for the traditions of hunting that trace back in this country for generations. And I think those who dismiss that out of hand make a big mistake.”

He added that the experience with guns in rural America differed dramatically from that in urban America. “If you grew up and your dad gave you a hunting rifle when you were 10, and you went out and spent the day with him and your uncles, and that became part of your family’s traditions, you can see why you’d be pretty protective of that,” he said.

“So it’s trying to bridge those gaps that I think is going to be part of the biggest task over the next several months,” he added. “And that means that advocates of gun control have to do a little more listening than they do sometimes.”

Raoulduke
3084
Points
Raoulduke 01/27/13 - 04:59 am
0
0
therapy

Norm
Now you are a trainer/therapist.Once again You do not get it.You have done nothing more than to enable the problem.Anti -terrorism training facility,saving Pvt.Ryan scenarios ,River patrol.You said it .The vet was back in Nam,Which is the place the vet is NOT suppose to go.You say you have been called an angry guy.Just what are you prepping for,and why?Because you are frightened of something that with all probability. Will not happen ever.I think .You are more angry with yourself than with your government.You spent 20+ years Then years after Nam.you realized you were duped.I think this because.As much as you may have wanted .You never got in the belly of the beast,and no matter how hard you try.All you will do is get more,and more frustrated.Because the closest you ever get to combat was through your training sessions,or listen to vets tell their stories about the belly of the beast.I am not disrespecting you.Just because of the fact you were not in the belly.You will never truly understand the vets who have.But you think you are right.I do appreciate your 2nd Amendment stand,but as far as helping the vets.I will never agree with your approach.

normolson
428
Points
normolson 01/27/13 - 06:54 pm
0
0
The Beast

You're right. I have no time in the belly of the beast, but let me remind you and all other ex military warriors: the beasts of Nam, Kawait, Iraq, Afganistan ARE COMING OUR WAY.

When the dollar collapses and the cities start burning and anarchy rules the steets and armed gangs start their killing and plundering, then what will these PTSD people do?

What's going to happen to them when the drugs run out and the medical facilities are overwhelmed?

What you're seeing now is just a inkling of what is coming. It is wrong to think that everything here will be normal when the money supply becomes inflated and the dollar becomes worthless.

Those who are alert and aware are taking a serious look at the rapid decline of the dollar as the world's reserve currency. When it happens, it will happen quickly. When chaos is unleashed where will the war-torn veterans go? Who will they turn to?

Are you preparing for the coming economic collapse and hyper inflation? If you are, then what can you offer to those vets who thought they left it all behind? It would be good to warn them and to prepare them for what is coming. Instead of sheltering them and lying to them and comforting them with misinformation, we ought to be telling them the truth.
At least we can give them that!!!

Raoulduke
3084
Points
Raoulduke 01/28/13 - 02:52 am
0
0
again

Norm-I must say.You stay the course. Like I said,You have your trend of thought,and I have mine.Do you really believe that these vets.Do not already know about what is happening in this world? If you do.Do a recheck.Remember! A great many of them did not need the length of time to figure what's up as yourself.You must also remember.What is truth for one.Is not the same truth for another.Because the vets Who've been in the belly in Kuwait,Iraq,Afghanistan will be coming home.Is why I recommend programs.Such as The Vets Journey Home.Home is where they need to be,not playing war game scenario's.The difference between fear,and PTSD is.You can run from fear,but you can not run from PTSD. One can only learn to deal with trying to have some resemblance of a normal life.It is with you for the rest of one's life.

JDBishop5
182
Points
JDBishop5 01/28/13 - 03:25 am
0
1
Interesting, but off subject.

The issue here is, do we think ordinary citizens have a Constitutional right to possess semiautomatic and fully automatic firearms, no matter their state of mind, however disrupted or not. I think it is clear that they do not, and that we would be a far more safe country if they didn't have them.

Raoulduke
3084
Points
Raoulduke 01/28/13 - 06:02 am
1
0
Back on topic

JDB-Yes!We have a right to own semi,and automatic weapons.I personally see no use for military style for myself.I do agree though.You give up that right should you have a mental condition that would impair rational judgment to the point of being committed to an institution,or have been convicted of either a felony,or domestic violence.Back on topic.The country will not be a safer place,because the criminals will have those exact same weapons.A killer is going to kill you no matter what.My question is. Would you rather get shot,or have your head caved in with a baseball bat,or brick? I do have the right to protect my own.Which I will do.

JDBishop5
182
Points
JDBishop5 01/28/13 - 07:29 am
0
1
@Raoulduke

'...Yes!We have a right to own semi,and automatic weapons...'

I don't think that is true.

As the law stands now, you may possess an automatic weapon only under substantial registration and inspection regulations. The continued possession of semiautomatic weapons is now a live question, but is not threatened by any proposed legislation, yet. I hope the new law in New York banning assault rifles is tested and found to be Constitutional. Tell us, if the decision is made to ban semiautomatic weapons of every description, will you obey?

Raoulduke
3084
Points
Raoulduke 01/28/13 - 08:30 am
1
0
JDB- You are waiting for the

JDB- You are waiting for the ruling in New York banning ASSAULT rifles.The registration,and inspection regulations along with a federal background check for full automatic weapons owners have been standard practice for as long as I can remember. The feds doing anything more means it will bring more government in our lives.Something most people would find objectionable.Then you ask me if there was a ban on SEMIAUTOMATIC weapons of every description.I would find that Sir to BE an INFRINGEMENT.So!To answer your question honestly about obeying.I must plead the 5th.

JDBishop5
182
Points
JDBishop5 01/28/13 - 09:20 am
0
2
@Raoulduke

'...To answer your question honestly about obeying.I must plead the 5th...' as is your right, even in a court of law, another Constitutional provision we should give good husbandry.

In general, however, I would say there will be people who disobey laws making such a change in the categories of weapons they may possess. They would be outlaws in that case, and will and should feel the full impact of the common will. If we are a civilized society, we must have citizens that will bend their knee to the sanctity of written law, or accept the penalty, if any, for not doing so. A great expression of that philosophy was expressed by the majority of civil rights and anti war demonstrators during the 1950's and '60's. There were the outlaws among us, who got most of the press in early days, but, as the conflict went forward, our position was more broadly accepted, laws were changed, and my friends were released from prison. None of us advocated taking up arms against our government.

JDBishop5
182
Points
JDBishop5 01/28/13 - 09:35 am
0
2
FYI

Here's an interesting and well written opinion on the subject. My only disagreement with the author is his choice of semiautomatic weapons.

Raoulduke
3084
Points
Raoulduke 01/28/13 - 09:40 am
0
1
@JDB

Years ago I had sworn an oath to protect,and defend this country from all enemies foreign,or domestic. I completed my military service requirement.But the oath I had sworn to this country.Still goes.I would not pick up arms against my country.

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