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Mine would set bad precedent

Posted: October 4, 2013 - 8:47am

I learned about the law suit against DNR and HB77 and am saddened by it all.

I began my Alaskan odyssey at age seventeen in 1973 and fell in love with The Last Frontier. During and after he Exxon Valdez Oil Spill the true fragility of all “this” became painfully apparent. The promises made about safeguards were wrong. I awoke to the fact of an ongoing pattern of neglect of the natural resources. It became very clear that regulators will say anything, and in reality can do nothing to restore the environment. I have no faith in the government to regulate our resources.

There is great value in wild salmon runs. If you catch a salmon and eat it I call that harvesting, if you eliminate the spawning stream of that salmon I call that murder. A paycheck is important, but a sustainable economy is more important. A salmon run represents sustainability. The Chuitna Coal Strip Mine in Upper Cook Inlet; and the horrible precedent it would set needs to be stopped. If they mine through a salmon stream here they will do it anywhere. There is no place on earth where the elimination of a wild salmon run can be justified as just the cost of business.

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CM907
28
Points
CM907 10/04/13 - 04:49 pm
0
2
Sustainability is Unsustainable

That's a touching story about your odyssey to the last frontier. I thought you were just the average bleeding heart liberal until you started spewing the word "sustainability" over and over again, like you were reading directly from U.N. Agenda 21. It was then I realized you were special, an environmental extremist.

I find it particularly annoying that people from other states think it is their job to protect our land. From us.

We need jobs up here. The whole country needs jobs. We should not deprive families the income they need from a good, honest job. Especially just to avoid bothering a field mouse, owl, eagles, whales or salmon.

These days we are required to stop bridge and dock work in the Cook Inlet if Belugas are spotted anywhere in sight of the job site. Crazy, I know. The damn belugas are known to beach themselves in large numbers and die, but we can't risk dropping a hammer in the water with them around, we may give one a black eye, or worse a bump on the head.

All we can do is our best to protect the habitat and wildlife, but not at the cost of human suffering or displacement or unemployment. It is exactly in times like these with a struggling national economy that we should jump at every chance to create jobs and not look for excuses to avoid them.

Luckily God gave us the ability to use common sense and multitask so we can develop natural resources AND protect nature!

Unglued
228
Points
Unglued 10/04/13 - 07:15 pm
3
0
Jobs

CM907, be annoyed all you want, but people from other states probably know better than you do what happens when natural resources are supposedly used to provide jobs. You apparently think it's OK to destroy a salmon stream so we can provide low-grade coal to China, so they can pollute the air even more than they already have. That would be criminal. A good definition of "evil" is to know that something is morally wrong, and to do it anyway. Bottom line: Most natural resources provide profits for foreign investors. "Jobs" is the carrot they hold out so they can strip-mine and drill our country until whatever it's gone. Ask yourself why we receive no royalties for mining. We should get past "jobs" and start thinking about what our grandkids will be doing after we're gone. We need to replace Don Young with someone with what you call common sense. We need to come up with some win-win deals, or Alaska is going to end up looking like a cold version of California.

CM907
28
Points
CM907 10/05/13 - 06:24 am
0
1
Mine it

As I just stated we have the ability to develop resources AND protect the environment. It is done all over the slope, all through the interior, though out Cook Inlet and everywhere else in Alaska.

You would be hard pressed to find a Alaskan water body used by salmon that isn't already being used to transport crude oil or refined products by ship or barge. So why allow one industry, such as the oil industry to jeopardize the precious salmon but not allow mining? Is it because YOU need the gasoline, but not the coal? Is that why? That's a pretty selfish way of looking at the world, you got yours, screw everyone else.

Who cares where the coal goes. If it's sold to Asia all the better, our economy improves and they can worry about their own air quality. They are going to burn coal no matter what, as they should, and just as we should. So if we can create 300-500 jobs here, and fill that demand there, that would be great.

As for the salmon creek I would not want to see it destroyed, and there are already laws protecting them, but there are stream diversion techniques that are effective and can actually strengthen salmon runs by adding more or safer spawning bed areas and areas for fry to hide from predators. Many years down the road, after mining is complete, federal law requires the land be returned to a natural state.

The correct path is to encourage industry to develop resources responsibly. It can be done.

Norseman
3593
Points
Norseman 10/05/13 - 08:22 am
1
0
We are on a spaceship

We are on a spaceship hurtling through space at 43,000 mph. We have limited resources and supplies.

Wouldn't it be prudent to make sure that the air, water, and food necessary for life is kept in the best healthy shape as possible?

You may not care that china burns coal but I do. When china burns coal, it effects everyone on the planet.

We MUST stop destroying this spaceship just so rich corporations can get richer. Try and wrap your mind around what kind of planet we are leaving our grandchildren and great grandchildren if we continue to exploit this place we call home.

We MUST make it a top priority to get on alternative forms of energy before it is too late.
Solar, wind, tidal, algae, geothermal are just a few of the ways we can create jobs PLUS help our planet.

Saying the term "clean coal" doesn't make it clean. The science on burning coal is well researched and documented. I for one will continue to fight tooth and nail against coal companies.
After all, it isn't like we can jump ship once we have dirtied this one to the point is uninhabitable.

Watchman on the Wall
2893
Points
Watchman on the Wall 10/05/13 - 09:14 am
0
0
Have No Fear we are not on a

Have No Fear we are not on a spaceship, nor are we hurling thru space at 43,000 mph. We are in perfect orbit which sustains life as we know it. If we moved the slightest away from or towards the sun we would all be destroyed.
We will never make the earth uninhabited from burning oil or coal or anything else for industrial purposes, other than possibly nukes.
Just a couple large volcanic eruptions in history past have PUT MORE carbons in the air than all the cars or industrial plants running for EVER could put out.
The lies of alternative energy are scams designed to suck $Trillions of dollars out of peoples pockets for un dependable energy and also allow world government advocates the rights to restrict and control ALL PEOPLES out of FALSE fears with these scams, lies.
This earth will though be almost totally destroyed by Nukes from World wars by control freak's, governments of evil men demanding absolute obedience.
As for jumping ship and getting off this planet that's what a few of us undesirables are actually waiting on and Hope for and have place our supposed Misplaced Faith in for the eternal future, when the nukes start to fly.
Ever watch Avatar? It pretty much shows what your talking about with soulless blue beings who worship a life giving tree while riding flying serpent's, dragons to fight and save their world from bad people, people who were eventually transported off the planet for the good of all.
OH! I would be worried about the earths destruction by fire though, but man will not do this. The TRUE ONE will do it, as fire always brings New Things and New Growth for life.

Burn all the coal, or oil you want folks, it will not destroy earth, but, nuclear war, waste will.
I would even bet that Russia's and Japan's nuclear melt downs along with all the different nations nuclear tests already have destroyed many natural foods on land and sea and we can't even begin to know how much.
Don't worry, be happy, every things under absolute control by the manufacturer of all we see or don't see and his warrantee is dependable and true for all who sign up for that FREE warrantee to Believe in. Every things right on schedule as planned.

Watchman on the Wall
2893
Points
Watchman on the Wall 10/05/13 - 09:29 am
0
0
P.S. There is a difference

P.S. There is a difference between Pebble mine and coal mines and Pebble would be the bad for salmon mine, not coal mines.
Yes there are bad things for all of created nature, but coal is not one of them, nor is oil or gas. Manmade added things into the air or water always cause more trouble than the natural created things as all evidence shows to be the case. It's not the oil spills, but the manmade chemicals added that cause the troubles from clean ups which the ocean can and does every day on it's own naturally all around the world in the sea as millions of gallons leak out of the earth non stop.
Coals not the problem folks.

CM907
28
Points
CM907 10/05/13 - 10:38 am
0
0
A spaceship?! Haha

I'm still laughing at the spaceship metaphor...life must be stressful walking around thinking the world is about to end because some poor chinaman is trying to stay warm by burning coal.

As the watchman said, a single volcano eruption does more to affect our planet than all mankind burning coal and running trucks and SUVs all night and day ever will.

I take it you subscribe to man-made global warming, which is impossible to prove and there is no evidence at all. Scientists can't even decide whether we are even in a warming period or not, many say we are actually cooling off. If you want to be an Al Gore fanboy, that's fine, the rest of us will just hang out over here in reality.

Last post for the day, I have a pile of tires to go burn.

Watchman on the Wall
2893
Points
Watchman on the Wall 10/05/13 - 11:34 am
0
0
Speaking of mining lets talk

Speaking of mining lets talk about all those save the planet people from Washington state, Oregon and a few other states who have mined the Kenai River King salmon to near extinction as it being a bad thing, want too? I wonder what form of energy is running the electric power plants down there, it sure isn't green power that's for sure. Lets talk of the continual sinking of nuclear waste subs and other forms in the Columbia river want to?
It's like the Green peace that attacks natural resource business' screaming about ruining the planet all the while using oil and gas in their vessels to the point of running out and being rescued by being given more oil and gas to continue their protests. Now that's going green for you.
God will have to intervene to save us from ourselves real soon or else we are all doomed due to stupidity of thinking that we are in control of anything sustaining life here on earth.

Norseman
3593
Points
Norseman 10/06/13 - 08:31 am
1
0
keep burning your tires, your

keep burning your tires, your children and their children will be the one's that will be harmed.

Over 90% of the worlds leading scientists are all in agreement that climate change is directly related to man's use of carbon based energy.

There are a small groups of people, like yourself who refuse to listen to scientific facts, but instead are eating up the propaganda spread by big oil and coal companies.
The way you deny climate change and promote the use of fossil fuels makes me think your more than likely employed by them.
I understand your fear. You fear that your livelihood will change once the world will no longer support the use of fossil fuels.
So were the tobacco workers when the truth on tobacco was finally revealed and accepted by the populace.
You keep drinking the kool-aid. In the meantime, you will be leaving a poor legacy for your grandchildren.

Unfortunately history will prove that you were on the wrong side of the climate change debate. But by then it won't do the rest of us much good.

pengy
255
Points
pengy 10/06/13 - 09:08 am
0
0
We're talking about affecting

We're talking about affecting 1500 coho where the Chuitna coal mine is. 1500! That's the equivalent to what my mosquito zapper kills relative to the entire mosquito population in Alaska.

CM907
28
Points
CM907 10/06/13 - 09:48 am
0
0
The earth does not have a fever, and we are not on a spaceship

I know it's hard to understand, but a really long time ago, the earth, or "spaceship" as you call it, was covered in ice and snow for a really long time. This time was known as the Ice age or Glacial age. It was a couple million years ago and obviously we weren't around to affect it in any way. Common sense should tell you all you need to know right there, but my guess is your still scratching your head.

Over the last 2000 years we are actually in a cooling off period. Something like .3 degrees Celsius decrease in temperature per MILLENIUM. That's negligible and your panicking about whether your great grandkids will be wearing sweaters or tank tops.

I'll include a few links from multiple sources, you should read them, I know you won't, but you should. I have also included a link to video of your hero Albert Gore reciting his global warming poem, that should be all the proof you need right there.

Btw, there are some very real and serious things to worry about going on right now that will have a much greater impact on your grandkids than climate change ever will.

http://m.newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2012/07/11/new-study-thorou...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2013/02/05/in-their-own-words-clim...

http://www.examiner.com/article/update-top-10-signs-global-warming-is-a-...

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MbBhMnlXBTE&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DMbBh...

jw99669
21
Points
jw99669 10/06/13 - 11:11 am
0
0
Human-caused climate change

Human-caused climate change is a hoax. That's the inconvenient truth. Al Gore and his "science" has been proven false in every model they've pulled out off thin air for the last 15 years. The planet isn't warming with significance...the seas aren't rising, the ice caps aren't melting. The notion that curtailing my carbon emissions will in any way affect the temperature of the Earth is asinine.

Norseman
3593
Points
Norseman 10/06/13 - 12:08 pm
1
0
What is asinine is to have an

What is asinine is to have an 800 pound gorilla staring directly at you, and you deny that he even exists.

Apparently many in here failed in their science classes. Then to make matters worse, their only source of info is from fox news and rush limbaugh. Talk about brainwashed.

jw99669
21
Points
jw99669 10/06/13 - 12:20 pm
0
0
Don't worry. Al Gore will

Don't worry. Al Gore will save the world by flying around in his 747 making speeches and by selling his TV network to Arab Oil for hundreds of millions of dollars, so he can buy his 8000 sq ft house and get rubbed down by some "masseuse" at his leisure. People who put Al Gore and his kind up on pedestals as gods are the gorillas staring us in the face. People who believe his brand of garbage science are the problem.

CM907
28
Points
CM907 10/06/13 - 12:45 pm
0
1
Who is really staring at a Gorilla?

I literally just sited three different sources with evidence that man made global warming is a hoax, and you respond by saying we are brainwashed by two totally different sources than I even posted. So as I predicted you didn't read the articles, which tells me you are the one staring at the gorilla and refuse to see it.

Liberalism is a disease that puts emotion ahead of facts and reality. You refuse to see the reality that there is no evidence man has affected climate change, and instead just keep standing on your position of think of the children. "Think of the children" is not a position. We on the other hand would like to have a good economy with many good paying jobs, thus leaving our children with a better future where America is still the greatest country in the world, and the best part is it can be done without "murdering" a fish.

Watchman on the Wall
2893
Points
Watchman on the Wall 10/06/13 - 10:48 pm
0
1
800 LB Orca swimming in Ocean

800 LB Orca swimming in Ocean of debt and BO wants $1Trillion plus added to the debt limit, while blaming everything else to distract from the real Gorilla in the room, is actually an 8000 LB Orca, which is a really Big Fish and also very hard to miss, unless blinded by asinine vision.
I would be more worried about this rather than coal mining or burning.
Also I would hold off on tire burning as well as they may be our only source of heat after certain people keep feeding this huge ocean mammal.
The problem is we are all in trouble and a select few could careless about facts that anyone shows them of the Master plan for absolute global control of everything consumed or needed to sustain life independently aside from Governmental dependence controlled programs.
Al Marmot Gore and his fake weather climate team are running yet another Giant money bilking Scam aided by misinformed addicts.
Any thing for more control leading to forced dependence of the masses.

BigRedDog
659
Points
BigRedDog 10/08/13 - 08:54 am
0
0
Swimming with Orcas?

That is one Big black fish, and how colorful to envision one swimming in a Sea of Red Ink. But remember what happens when they get bored with the program and decide to play around with their keepers. And now we have Putin putting in his 2 cents regarding our failing economy and he knows something about failed governments! And now that we are not represented at the Pacific Rim Summit who can they make fun of, oh you mean us, like US.

Unglued
228
Points
Unglued 10/08/13 - 03:59 pm
1
0
another place, another lesson learned

People in the Northwest are waking up to the fact that they have to do something to save the few streams they have left that will support salmon. Do we have to reach that dismal state of affairs? I give Alaskans credit, both for not caring how they do it Outside, and for caring how we do it in Alaska.
Read this. It's an eye-opener.

http://www.salmonnation.com/essays/natures_trust.html

BigRedDog
659
Points
BigRedDog 10/09/13 - 07:09 am
1
0
Island in Chuitna

I remember climbing down that big rope from the road to the river bed in 1969. At the bottom of the ridge the Chuitna River had an island about 1/2 mile long access was over a huge cottonwood log spanning a 50' channel. When crossing the log a 75' wide strip of coal was visible deep beneath the water crossing under the river at an angle. Back then the water seemed alive with fish and you really watched how much you caught because you had to climb that rope back up to the road.
There is enough coal to cover the energy needs of America for the next 2500 years within 150' of the surface, existing between Homer and Talkeetna . That is what Andy Johnson the director of the Alaska Native Land Selection Committee said in 1977. So don't tell me we can't find SOME way of harvesting that coal w/o messing with the Chuitna.

Watchman on the Wall
2893
Points
Watchman on the Wall 10/09/13 - 08:12 am
0
0
Wonder what JPZ would say

Wonder what JPZ would say about all this mine troubles and besides that where has JohnPeterZinger been anyhow?
Did the govt. shut down, shut him down, or what?
I will say this though.

'When trying to make sense of the facts, common sense is best or else one ends up Believing Non-sense, which makes no sense.'
Since Non-sense looks like all government plans now do, lets all use common sense please realizing coal is not the problem here.
I hope I got all my senses right, since I started this post.

Seafarer
1147
Points
Seafarer 10/10/13 - 10:00 am
1
0
No Mine!

I completely agree, but what we think means nothing the Parnell Regime. He won't trade coal for salmon, even tho he said the opposite to get elected. He is a liar. HB77 gives the water we all own to developers and the republican party. If you love our wetlands, rail against HB77, or your wetlands can be bulldozed at the stroke of his pen.

Raoulduke
3055
Points
Raoulduke 10/10/13 - 12:33 pm
1
0
A Liar ?

One must remember Parnell IS a lobbyist for the oil corporate.He also happens to be an elected official.Finding out late about this liar.Now you know. Where not to cast your vote.

Watchman on the Wall
2893
Points
Watchman on the Wall 10/10/13 - 09:49 pm
0
1
If Liars, call Liars Liars,

If Liars, call Liars Liars, and everyone is lying, WHO IS THE REAL LIAR or are both telling the Truth which a liar thinks he/she is doing? Man that's a tongue twister there.
Just wondering and MINING for an answer that's not Black as Coal lie, or a White lie either.
So will the real liar please stand up, would be what was said on TO TELL THE TRUTH and $50 dollars was paid to every wrong pick for the True Liar was.
I think the TRUTH IS the coal mine is ok and not harmful.

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