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Reaction would be more constructive

Posted: June 10, 2014 - 8:39am

I just read “Eric Derleth Trial Lawyer” rant in the paper (June 2). Wow, he clearly expresses his anger. Anger is certainly appropriate in many situations. But I don’t get it. He wants to debate morality and religion. Societal morality enforcement has always failed when attempts are to legislate it. It just becomes a money maker for government. The pot issue is an excellent example. And as for religion, it is based on an individual’s faith. How do you debate one faith system over another? Religion is based on faith not facts.

And then he questions decisions of family members. I don’t know any of the individuals involved in this tragedy. But questioning what a family decides is out of line. Their loss was far more severe than his one-sided loss.

If Mr. Derleth wants to have a discussion or debate the issues, he should ask why, as a society, have we evolved to a point where an individual is so desperate to murder and then commit suicide (whether self inflicted or suicide by cop). Sure, he states suicide is an action of a coward. Is calling people names going to improve the underlying issues of murder and suicide?

While anger is appropriate in this situation, it is what people do with the anger that may be harmful. It appears Mr. Derleth’s anger has turned to bitterness and it will only harm him in the end. He needs to take his anger and generate some good. Start a debate/discussion on what we as a society should be doing to better give hope to individuals like Pastor Earl Moore.

That would be a true tribute to Lynda Moore. Then Mr. Derleth could say “Rest in peace, Lynda.” Perhaps understanding what generated such desperate behavior will help the next individual from destroying a human life. Recognizing a problem in our society is the first step to improving problems in our society. Debating morality and religion will not get Eric Derleth or us there.

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normolson
393
Points
normolson 06/10/14 - 04:50 pm
0
2
Fightin' a Fool

Scripture says, " Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit." Proverbs 24:4-5

Bravo, Ray. Best letter you've ever written....clear, logical, and direct. Debating this subject would be an act of lowering oneself to the level of a fool. Scripture has also said that "the fool says 'there is no God.'" The wise man will avoid such traps since arguing with a fool only increases the fool's own deceit. I'm sure Mr. Derleth feels he's won simply because no one will debate him. What he doesn't understand is that the truth needs no debate and offers none. The truth doesn't need to prove itself.

Faith IS the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen. For those with faith, it is enough. For those who seek the truth through man's wisdom, there will never be enough proof. For thousands of years men have searched for the truth. We who have rested in faith have already found it.

Norseman
3368
Points
Norseman 06/11/14 - 06:32 am
2
1
I read Mr Derleths column and

I read Mr Derleths column and thought it was spot on. You two are always looking to grandstand on each and every issue.

Your egos are just about as big as your conspiracy theories.

I applaud Mr Derleth for his viewpoints on this matter.

RaySouthwell
953
Points
RaySouthwell 06/11/14 - 09:35 am
0
3
As the President said

Another murder suicide in the nation. As the president said. "The country has to do some soul searching about this," Obama said. "This is becoming the norm, and we take it for granted in ways that, as a parent, are terrifying to me."

So the only two choices given are gun control or pharmaceuticals.

I think an open discussion/debate on how we treat each other is another option. The other two will not work.

Here is the link to President Obama's statements.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/06/10/320755973/obama-country-n...

Suss
3634
Points
Suss 06/11/14 - 12:28 pm
2
1
Derleth and God

Derleth has been preaching and advocating for his atheism, pot promotion, gay rights and other "trigger" causes for quite some time. This seems to be an uncontrolled compulsion with him.

He is free to pay his weekly fee to be so very sensationalizing on any topic he chooses to broadcast and garner attention for himself.

We as selective readers are free enjoy the comic sections of the paper or to not bother to read them.

Personally, his paid advertisements are humorous but not in the way he intended them to be humorous.

Just be very thankful that he doesn't go door to door proselytising like some other faiths are known to do.

If Derleth could guarantee a large enough venue, I would think Pastor Bearup would share a stage for a debate. Now that would be like watching two Danny Devitos argue, without the laughs.

In all seriousness, it is not anyone's business but the family involved, on how they honor and bury their dead. Shame on the disrespect shown for the grieving survivors. Just to mock religion and make a promotional claim for his non-believing self. God is watching and she is not happy.

normolson
393
Points
normolson 06/11/14 - 06:30 pm
1
3
Deserved Praise

I would like to throw some praise toward the Peninsula Clarion for running Ray's letter. Derleth has never submitted a letter to the editor, but uses his financial resources to capture the public's attention week after week through a paid ad. He is certainly free to do so, and I would defend his right to publish his point of view.
His choice of subject matter however, may cause clients to rethink whether Derleth would be an effective attorney. He has already alienated large groups of people with his openly bias opinions. (I thought attorneys were supposed to be neutral. . .)
At any rate, thanks to the Clarion for running Ray's letter. I hope that Derleth himself will become a matter of public debate and opinion. Frankly, I think he's shot himself in the foot.
He is a fool and anyone who debates him will only lift him in his own self conceit.
But, for now, he's just doing what free Americans have the right to do. He's free to buy ads and publish his personal opinons. Aren't you glad that folks in America still have the right to show just how ignorant they are?

Norseman
3368
Points
Norseman 06/11/14 - 07:07 pm
3
0
Who is the fool norm?

Who is the fool norm?

Whackjob religous nutjob husband murders his wife in cold blood and the preacher praises him at the funeral for being a good christian? Then they bury them side by side? That is messed up.
Mr Derleth just exposed the truth that so many are to cowardice to do.
If their are any fools out and about, it is the militia.

If I am ever in need of a good attorney, I'd want one like Mr Derleth.

RaySouthwell
953
Points
RaySouthwell 06/12/14 - 10:21 am
0
0
How do we treat each other?

The issue raised is how do we treat each other? We enjoy debating individuals behavior rather than the underlying cause for the behavior. Rather than raising the question of why are people are picking up a gun to get even, we rather call them all sorts of names. It is my understanding there have been 74 school shootings since the Sandy Hook shooting (December 12, 2012.) Our Presidents reaction is more gun control. Many want to outlaw all sorts of guns, to keep us safe.
As I said in my letter-

"Recognizing a problem in our society is the first step to improving problems in our society. Debating morality and religion will not get Eric Derleth or us there."

What is the root cause of the violence?

Link to the number posted.
http://news.yahoo.com/us-school-shootings-list-134025238.html

mikehu
169
Points
mikehu 06/12/14 - 12:40 pm
0
0
The Third Paragraph

I like the third paragraph here. I see this as stickier and more complicated. That issue is much more of a challenge societally and has no easy answer.

RaySouthwell
953
Points
RaySouthwell 06/12/14 - 01:15 pm
0
2
People are fragile

The first step is to acknowledge people are fragile and must be handled with care, respect and justice. I read these words a few days ago. I would encourage all to think about the words written by a man named James Altucher

"Can You Defeat the Monster"
"Someone I knew drove to the middle of a bridge yesterday, got out of her car, and jumped 200 feet off the bridge. She was pregnant.

A few months ago, a friend of mine who is CEO of a Silicon Valley company left the car running in his garage while he was in it. He was fortunately found, taken to the hospital, and survived, after he passed out.

Nobody wants to kill themselves. But we all have a monster inside. Sometimes the monster takes over. We can't control it at that point.

It's never the fault of the business failing. It's never the fault of a partner or spouse breaking up with you.

It's never the fault of parents who abused. Or of life feeling like a mountain too large to climb.

It's not your fault either. The monster is in everyone. We often medicate to keep the monster down. Or drown ourselves in addictions that don't help us but numb the monster.

In January 2006 I woke up at 3am on the intersection of 49th and Lexington after having too much to drink and cars swerving around me in the rain. One example of many in the past 20 years. I'm lucky.

There's no way to kill the monster. It's there inside of you right now. We all feel it.

Our unhappiness feeds it. Keeping physically emotionally mentally and spiritually healthy starves it but won't kill it. It waits.

Claudia just told me: imagine you have a spoon but the spoon is too heavy to feed yourself with. You can only hold it out and feed someone else with it. Everyone has to feed each other with these spoons else we won't eat and we won't live.

Evolution favored the generations of our species that learned to feed each other with these too-heavy spoons.

Often you can't feed yourself. The monster is out of your control. But you can always feed another. Find someone today to feed.

Not by talking to them. Not by teaching. Not by demanding or blaming or yelling or advising. The monster feeds off of all of that.

But by listening. Listening is power. Listening teaches you, feeds another, makes their story more beautiful, builds connections, starves the monster inside both, expresses love.

Saves lives."

           

normolson
393
Points
normolson 06/12/14 - 07:07 pm
0
4
Theologly Aside

Who can counsel God? Derleth avoids God and His instructions for life through the Bible, leaving the pathway of instruction to the human mind, in which he trusts.
The Bible tells us that the flesh, the mind, and the will of man is broken, flawed, and unable to direct its own way through the rubble of human experience, often called the "Human Condition." Derleth rejects the notion that we are fallen creatures, having the "monster" within (spoken of by Ray's contribution). Derleth figures that evolution will one day solve the meriad faults and flaws inbedded in the human nature. Derleth's grasp on evolution's eventual erradication of our human destructive and self-interest nature is to him, a theory without support and without scientific method. Yet, sadly, he (who should yearn for evidence) embraces the weakest argument of all: that man can shape his own destiny.
The believer's concept of a world view is one of man's total failure to abide by what is often called "higher nature." Instead, we find man in the grips of a fallen-nature, driven by a primative part of our mind. If good things happen, it's probably by accident and against the fallen nature of mankind.

Derleth's conjuring is his own consumation. He will search his whole life through, looking for a hopeful exit from this world of self-interested, self-consuming humanity. His quest will be his own ruin.

As far as faith is concerned, Derleth's faith that the world is getting better and the human machine can self-adjust and fix its own problems is a far greater faith than even I have.

Good luck, Eric... You have the right to publish your own present opinion... Trouble is, you've been shown to be a fool in the face of human history and the Word of God.

Norseman
3368
Points
Norseman 06/12/14 - 08:17 pm
4
0
Pastor norm,,,,,,please leave

Pastor norm,,,,,,please leave your sermons for your militia compound congregation.
Not everyone believes in god nor the bible. Why do you call everyone who disagrees with you as a fool?

The bible is nothing more than a bunch of stories written by man. So was the Wizard of Oz.

Your rage against Mr Derleth for his personal beliefs just shows how narrow minded and bigoted religous zealots like you really are.

mikehu
169
Points
mikehu 06/13/14 - 12:35 am
5
0
Religion

Religion is better lived than spoken.

RaySouthwell
953
Points
RaySouthwell 06/13/14 - 08:39 am
1
1
The question remains

How can we change the destructive behavior of murder and suicide? A man's religion/faith did not change his destructive behavior. What can we do as a society to better help desperate individuals?

normolson
393
Points
normolson 06/13/14 - 12:43 pm
0
3
Huh?

"Not everyone believes in god nor the bible. Why do you call everyone who disagrees with you as a fool?"

I simply echo the judgment that God has rendered upon those who say there is no God.
Ps 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."
Ps 53:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."
Pr 28:26 "He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool:"

It was Derleth who opened the door and invited God's evaluation.

mikehu
169
Points
mikehu 06/13/14 - 01:40 pm
2
0
Religion and Solution

When religion and our interpretation of a deity's will become our basis for argument and objective we lose a great percentage of the people we want to communicate with and help. We need the concrete and tangible, not the ethereal humanspeak for God. Religion helps strengthen personal resolve and lends introspection as to our own frailties and failings (if you're a believer) but it is a poor antidote for the ills of society. Religion often brings more judgement/accusation than empathy and effective solutions en masse. It tends to create suspicion rather than provide hope when humans masquerade in the cloth. Trite as it is, history is replete with examples and of course the examples march on in the present, with no disconnection from the past.

leewaytooo
1851
Points
leewaytooo 06/14/14 - 03:26 am
3
0
"Listen, I want people to

"Listen, I want people to listen, I want the people to consider, are there other Timothy McVeighs out there? If the United States government continues its treacherous ways, its abuses of power, yes, there are going to be responses, and those responses may be a butcher bill that the American people aren't willing to pay."

PRESS: "I'm sorry I find it funny. No, but here's what I don't find funny is: that you say you don't support something like McVeigh did, but all -- don't you understand that there are some sick people out there, like McVeigh, who hear your words, who hear that rhetoric, who read your writings, and there are going to go out and do the same thing, and you my friend, are plants the seeds of that violence and killing those innocent women and children."

“You come up to Northern Michigan, mister, and I’ll see you in my crosshairs.”

thou shall not kill.................seems to be a lost commandment..

"the only thing that timothy did wrong was to get caught"

suicide is painless..........and it is an unfortunate choice some

make...... still it is their choice........

just think how history would be different if some had made

that choice ..............

RaySouthwell
953
Points
RaySouthwell 06/14/14 - 09:02 am
0
1
Words do not incite people to violence

Words do not incite people to violence unless there is truth to the words spoken. I heard the same argument from the government during the 60's. Race Riots were blamed on those who spoke words against government's behavior.

No different around the globe as people rise up against corrupt governments that have impoverished the people.

But once again Lewaytooo you deflect the issues raised surrounding my letter.

What are you doing to help those desperate individuals who see no hope for a future. Based on your writings not much of anything.

If you fear violence from people whom Norm and I meet everyday, what should we do with them all. Just ignore their fears and lock them all up. They tried that during the Civil Rights movement and society became more violent.

What is your answer Leewaytooo ?

And Mike Hu, governments have used Religion to march towards war since the dawn of civilization. Why else did we support the wars in the mid-east. The people believe it is a religious war. But it is about the USA government maintaining our dollar's hegemony around the world and control of the oil in the mid-east. But once again it is off topic.

I again ask you- How can we change the destructive behavior of murder and suicide?

RaySouthwell
953
Points
RaySouthwell 06/14/14 - 09:14 am
0
1
Suicide is not a choice

Lewaytooo, you state- "suicide is painless..........and it is an unfortunate choice some make...... still it is their choice.."

Most people in our culture believe as you do. However, suicide is the behavior of an individual who sees no hope for a future. No human being wants to die unless they are hopeless.

What are you doing to bring hope to those desperate individuals?

mikehu
169
Points
mikehu 06/14/14 - 12:40 pm
3
0
In Response to Ray Southwell

Ray I did not read Derleth's writing; however, I keep seeing God and The Bible put up in responses by Norm. All I did was put my two cents in about the problem of using spiritualism as an answer for public/societal problems. I never stated or implied that it has not been a reason for conflict; in fact I said quite the contrary. I respect those who have faith, but I believe it should be kept close to the chest and applied with introspective discretion for inner strength, not a remedy or rationale for dissing sombody else. I think religious belief requires asking questions about the paradoxes and ironies of life as a believer. People are going to disagree with with equal passion on both sides, so what - it's only personal. Given that spiritualism hinges on faith, that is not a leap everybody is willing to take or should be forced to do. The empirical methods of science are much more convincing; faith is a greater challenge.

RaySouthwell
953
Points
RaySouthwell 06/14/14 - 12:35 pm
1
2
Agreed

As you state-"I also think religious belief requires asking questions about the paradoxes and ironies of life.

As I said yesterday-"A man's religion/faith did not change his destructive behavior. What can we do as a society to better help desperate individuals?"

But I see no discussion on the question I raised.

beaverlooper
2939
Points
beaverlooper 06/14/14 - 07:47 pm
2
0
There is no discussion on your question

There is no discussion on your question because it is stupid. You want a cookie cutter answer and there isn't one.No 2 people are the same or believe all the same things or have been raised the same way.Many posters on this blog(I believe you may know one or two) are not even willing to compromise.
You are wrong, words do incite people to violence if people BELIEVE the words to be true,even if they are 1/2 truths ,lies of omission or just plain out lies ,as long as people BELIEVE the words to be true they can and will incite violence.Even your words.
As i understand it the Oklahoma bomber was a listener to your words,they may not have been entirely, or partly, or not at all from what he heard there but his ideas didn't just magically appear.,they came from words.
Do you not believe that words some of the Imams teach don't incite violence?Do you believe that when a Christian minister wants to have a mass burning of the Koran is meant to bring peace?You're Kidding yourself.

RaySouthwell
953
Points
RaySouthwell 06/15/14 - 07:29 am
0
3
A stupid question?

No question is ever stupid. Agreed, there are no "cookie cutter" answers. But isn't that what we hear surrounding the issue. Just make gun ownership harder and all will be better. Why not outlaw all guns and we all will be much safer. Or just medicate the mentally ill and all will be well.

The issue is complex and we must have an open discussion on how to improve our society. And that first step is understanding people are fragile and must be handled with care, respect and justice.

As for words. You state- "words do incite people to violence if people BELIEVE the words to be true, even if they are 1/2 truths ,lies of omission or just plain out lies ,as long as people BELIEVE the words to be true they can and will incite violence. Even your words."

Please tell me what words I have said to incite violence? Or just document why my fears of our government's behavior are incorrect.

As for McVeigh where did you hear such foolishness?

Many Islamic believers understand our government's behavior in the mid-east for the last 60 years. The anger toward us is because of the truth most Americans reject hearing. And now we see Iraq being destroyed from within. Will we support Iran's action in support of the government of Iraq?
I know another "stupid question." We will and we must. There is control of their oil at stake.

leewaytooo
1851
Points
leewaytooo 06/17/14 - 05:23 am
4
0
The militias, said Ray

The militias, said Ray Southwell of the Northern Michigan group, are led by spiritual heirs of the Revolutionary-era citizens who took up arms against British tyranny. Only now, he said, the U.S. government is the tyrant.

"spiritual heirs".......... boo boo likes to play good cop to the psychotic's other........

Southwell said, "My hope is that we can turn this country around without firing a shot. But if not, I'm afraid . . . at some point the government will cross the line and it will be neighbor coming to the aid of neighbor. Just like at Concord and Lexington."

never going to happen....because there just is not that many
psychotics out there....using fear to create death.

"Am I nuts? Am I paranoid?" Southwell said.

yes

"The militia grew because of fear, and without fear, the militia will recede.”

so they keep stoking that fire of fear...

“you have rhetoric that carries over to extreme factions.” He continues, “Anytime you have group-think and this churning of ridiculous ideas back and forth, eventually you’ll get someone like McVeigh who’s going to say, ‘I’m going to take the mantle of leadership and fire the shot heard around the world and start the second American revolution.’”

you will never ever shed the stink of the deaths of women and

children and men that your words helped to create.

that is why I despise everything about you.

history would truly benefit from some selective suicides..

RaySouthwell
953
Points
RaySouthwell 06/17/14 - 10:56 am
0
4
Who is stoking the "fire of fear?"

Not sure where you picked up the quotes from 20 years ago. But some believe everything they read in the media. It is easy to never question what you read in the paper. Just continue to parrot what you see as truth.

This quote is accurate "The militia grew because of fear, and without fear, the militia will recede.”

Look around the world. When economies falter the people rise up against corrupt governments.

But lets get back to my fear of not addressing the issues that have led to an ever increasing violence in our society, murder/suicide.

But like so many of my fears, the people reject honest discussion on the issues raised whether government's behavior or increasing murder/suicide.

So I attempt dialog and it is rejected. Murder/suicide will continue to increase and the militias will continue to grow, regardless of what you or I speak.

That is, unless we have honest questions discussed.

As I wrote in my original letter encouraging Mr. Derleth to "Start a debate/discussion on what we as a society should be doing to better give hope to individuals like Pastor Earl Moore."

jford
2632
Points
jford 06/17/14 - 11:10 am
4
2
I score the latest round a clear knockout for leewaytoo.

It's doubtful the other fighter will reclaim any respect after that resounding beatdown.

I expect the other fighter won't own up to his defeat, he'll pursue a weak attempt at deflection and misdirection, but all the while he'll know his own hypocrisy was the actual means of his own defeat.

RaySouthwell
953
Points
RaySouthwell 06/17/14 - 11:51 am
1
3
Foolishness

This is not a fight to see what individual wins. It is a fight for the future improvement of society. I am not a smart man and not very strong. It matters little if I win anything. It's about the future for my grandchildren.

beaverlooper
2939
Points
beaverlooper 06/17/14 - 03:56 pm
3
0
name one

Name one society that has been free of murder and suicide and tell me how they did it. Then maybe we will have something to discuss.

jford
2632
Points
jford 06/17/14 - 05:06 pm
1
2
You've performed exactly as I predicted, ray.

...deflection and misdirection. First you say it's not a fight and within the same breath, you claim yes it is a fight.

I knew your hypocrisy would come to the fore, there's a many years long pattern for corroboration.

Admit your hypocrisy, renounce your errors, you are just like anyone else, you don't get to have it both ways. You can't tell someone the government is the problem one day and attempt to tell that same person the government is the solution the next. You can't claim words don't incite one day and attempt to incite others with words the next.

You've done that kind of thing for too long, it's getting old, ray. It's indicative of a deep seated hypocrisy. It might still get a rise out of your pal Norm, but that's about it.

If we want answers to life's grand questions, ray, we aren't likely going to look to you or Norm to be a credible source.

RaySouthwell
953
Points
RaySouthwell 06/17/14 - 06:40 pm
0
3
Beaverlooper

As you say beaverlooper-"Name one society that has been free of murder and suicide and tell me how they did it. Then maybe we will have something to discuss."

None. But I do not expect man to be perfect. Just a society that wants to decrease the increasing murder/suicide in our nation.

Do you agree it is getting worse? If so why and what can we do to decrease such behavior?

Any discussion?

RaySouthwell
953
Points
RaySouthwell 06/17/14 - 06:51 pm
0
3
Oh Please Jford

Don't take my comments out of context. As you said- "I score the latest round a knockout for Lewaytoo."

Foolish behavior.

I would much rather discuss the issue raised in my letter.

But most are just like you. Ignore the question raised because the answers might be too difficult to accept.

OK, you win I lose. Do you feel better now?

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