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Reaction would be more constructive

Posted: June 10, 2014 - 8:39am

I just read “Eric Derleth Trial Lawyer” rant in the paper (June 2). Wow, he clearly expresses his anger. Anger is certainly appropriate in many situations. But I don’t get it. He wants to debate morality and religion. Societal morality enforcement has always failed when attempts are to legislate it. It just becomes a money maker for government. The pot issue is an excellent example. And as for religion, it is based on an individual’s faith. How do you debate one faith system over another? Religion is based on faith not facts.

And then he questions decisions of family members. I don’t know any of the individuals involved in this tragedy. But questioning what a family decides is out of line. Their loss was far more severe than his one-sided loss.

If Mr. Derleth wants to have a discussion or debate the issues, he should ask why, as a society, have we evolved to a point where an individual is so desperate to murder and then commit suicide (whether self inflicted or suicide by cop). Sure, he states suicide is an action of a coward. Is calling people names going to improve the underlying issues of murder and suicide?

While anger is appropriate in this situation, it is what people do with the anger that may be harmful. It appears Mr. Derleth’s anger has turned to bitterness and it will only harm him in the end. He needs to take his anger and generate some good. Start a debate/discussion on what we as a society should be doing to better give hope to individuals like Pastor Earl Moore.

That would be a true tribute to Lynda Moore. Then Mr. Derleth could say “Rest in peace, Lynda.” Perhaps understanding what generated such desperate behavior will help the next individual from destroying a human life. Recognizing a problem in our society is the first step to improving problems in our society. Debating morality and religion will not get Eric Derleth or us there.

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jford
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jford 06/17/14 - 08:48 pm
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Oh please? Out of context?

The context is your hypocrisy, and it's not any surprise you respond as if you hadn't seen it.

I have to agree with you that you lose, ...and there never was any competition.

I didn't ignore your raising questions, I addressed you in the manner in which your hypocrisy deserves to be addressed. As I said, if we want answers to life's grand questions, ray, we aren't likely going to look to you or Norm to be a credible source.

mikehu
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mikehu 06/18/14 - 12:12 am
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I Think Ray has a Point

Our country, America, is not a place one thinks of where schools are unsafe and mass gatherings are fodder for bombings or auto weoponry. There IS an "epidemic". Something IS wrong. If I thought stricter laws would cure it I would be all for them. There has arisen a fringe where the edge is closer than we are comfortable with. I don't have any answers either but making more laws is a kneejerk reaction. I think the problem is societal. We are already "over-lawed". He is on to something there. The problem of course is where the answer lies. We can't placate and pamper but if we can seek understanding, we may be able to find a solution. That however, borders on the ethereal and building lighthouses in the sky. I think the problem is much deeper than coffeehouse lawyering. We are beginning to alienate people and the only recourse they see is violence.

RaySouthwell
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RaySouthwell 06/18/14 - 08:28 am
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Hypocrisy?

Please share my hypocrisy-jford.

In the meantime, will you answer one of "life's grand questions?" Lets start with this one I raised in my letter.

"Why, as a society, have we evolved to a point where an individual is so desperate to murder and then commit suicide (whether self inflicted or suicide by cop)?

RaySouthwell
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RaySouthwell 06/18/14 - 08:49 am
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Mikehu

Thank You for your comments. Think what we could do with civil discussion on issues that effect people. You bring out a great point. As you stated- "We are beginning to alienate people and the only recourse they see is violence." Just look to the mid-east and our 60 year history of our government supporting violence there.

I have often said people are fragile and must be treated with care, respect and justice.

Do we support such behavior in our society? Are people forced to comply because they may be different than the majority?

Do children learn by what they see or by what they are taught with words?

jford
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jford 06/18/14 - 09:53 am
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leewaytooo
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leewaytooo 06/18/14 - 04:11 pm
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"Just continue to parrot what

"Just continue to parrot what you see as truth."

and whom is the parrot?

censor deleted my original post ...

really? just asked if boo boo wanted a cracker???

I suppose that it is ok to call others "foolish"

what is that?? "Is calling people names going to

improve ......." and tell us what is "foolish"?

other than calling/attacking another on this site for

their opinion/thoughts.

suicide sucks period...........still it is each persons choice.

some animals, such as dolphins in captivity have supposedly

just stopped breathing in order to escape their conditions..

the murder part sucks too... narcissistic behavior...

still, trying to rebrand yourself as something other than

what you have presented yourself to be in the past.... is

hypocritical behavior.......

why have guns if you don't intend to use them?

seems like you might just murder/kill some one ....

seems like you have trained to do just exactly that...

mikehu
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mikehu 06/19/14 - 12:44 pm
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Regardless

Regardless of the quality of anybody's arguments or points made, something has changed in American society, no matter whether Ray answers to specifics or not. I believe we are less empathetic and more insular as individuals; a greater number of people have less, and we are not as required to physically interact as much today. At other times in history we were forced to do so and things were less instant. Now we are more removed from one another. These are purely musings and are up for conjecture. Still, the social impact of this has to have an effect. I think it affects the socially marginalized the most whether affluent or poor.

RaySouthwell
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RaySouthwell 06/19/14 - 08:16 am
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foolish behavior

Lewaytoo. Sometimes you actually say things that are constructive. Most of the time it is just foolish behavior.

I have no problem with people having a different opinion than me. But that is not what you do. Rather you attack the person than discredit the opinion presented.

You have presented no opinion on the topic of the letter. How to decrease the murder/suicide rate in the nation. Religion did not help with Pastor Earl Moore.

As you state- "suicide sucks period...........still it is each persons choice."

I disagree. It is not a choice any more than my heart disease was my choice.

I would encourage you to watch the documentary called, "Murder by Proxy, How America went Postal." It helps explain one issue, among others, surrounding the increasing murder/suicide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfOQhh5-Ei8

But I expect you will again attack me for my clear understanding of why the founders codified the Second Amendment. Write a letter to the editor and you too can start a discussion on the issue of why the militia movement continues to grow.

RaySouthwell
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RaySouthwell 06/19/14 - 09:46 am
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MikeHu

As you state- "I believe we are less empathetic and insular as individuals; a greater number of people have less, and we are not as required to physically interact as much today."

Agreed. But it is much greater concern than just less "empathetic and insular as individuals." We have lost respect toward each other. I do not believe there has been any time in history where we are more polarized than today.

And so we fight each other hoping to get the upper hand in controlling our government. And we ignore the argument from the other side.

But in reality we never ask what I call "honest questions." Honest questions on Abortion, Murder/Suicide, Marriage, Economics, Second Amendment and on and on.
So we destroy the well being of people who have different opinions than the majority and call on government to stop the violence. Oh they will for a time then the violence will increase. Just look around the world.

If we only treated people with care, respect and justice. Instead we demand my fair share rather than equal opportunity. But perhaps I am just a foolish dreamer.

mikehu
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mikehu 06/19/14 - 01:55 pm
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The purpose of government is

The purpose of government is a trade off creating tension, a tug of war between safety/security and freedom/liberty. Too much of either extreme results in either tyrranny on one end and anarchy at the other (Thomas Hobbes interpreted). We probably need government more but it is often a mixed blessing. You say we have "lost respect for one another" however, I perceive the reason as being our increased insularity and disconnection.

It is a lot easier to be disrespectful online than in public as the social sanctions are not as immediate (in terms of proximity). With the faster pace of service and instantaneous push button devices we are less patient and attentive. I see it all as cumulative whereby there is no one reason for the disconnect. Society moves at the pace of it technology and desensitization is more pervasive as well.

Our times are no more divided or vicious than any other. The period of our founders would make this seem like child's play. Also, the tensions during the build up to the Civil War were another tempest laced with all kinds of social division and cultural diffusion. Still another difficult period was the progressive era of Teddy Roosevelt when labor reform and anti-ttust legislation was I thrust.

The difference is the rapid speed of our communication and the pace life is lived. As somebody above stated, there are no cookie cutter answers and laws are designed to protect us from the basest elements of our nature. I am succumbing to rhetoric here.

RaySouthwell
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RaySouthwell 06/20/14 - 09:25 am
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Rule of Law

Our founders believed government was a necessary evil. I agree. There has always been a desire to keep government in check. Part of that check was establishing "Rule of Law." There has been a battle on who will be under the Rule of Law.
Much of our history has been fought over keeping all people under the Rule of Law. Self governance/Revolutionary War, Slavery/Civil War, Corporate ownership/Labor movement. Equal Rights/Civil Rights movement.

Today the battle has been lost to the elite. Rule of Law is only for the little guy. Individuals feel alone and disrespected. Government intensifies our differences and individuals become more isolated until they do violent things to get even. No different than the Revolutionary War, Civil War, Violent Labor movement, Violent Civil Rights movement.

Except for one big difference. There is no unity only division among the people. I find the situation in Iraq very interesting. The corrupt government causing division among the people has now spawned unity (ISIS) against the corruption.

I am not sure I agree with your technological advances causing problems among people. Today, more information is available to people.

People have more information to better understand their world around them. Technologies are good in keeping people informed about current events. But like all information it must be researched to find the truth.

But that is the big picture. What about the issue surrounding Pastor Earl Moore? Why was he hopeless? Why did his faith not help him in his desperate time? We can all speculate. But with discussion, society can change. By understanding humans fragility we can give hope. Suicide is a disease not a conscious decision. In my experiences, with people, suicide only occurs when individuals see no hope in a future. How could we change our society to give hope? Simply, we could just treat each other with respect. Not going to happen as a whole. But we could reach out to individuals who we see becoming isolated.

That is what I have done in the workplace and in our society. Always listening and not judging and giving people hope. Hope of returning to Rule of Law for all.

mikehu
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mikehu 06/21/14 - 01:42 am
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Government is no more evil

Government is no more evil than we make it. The founders never viewed it as an evil, but only as an entity to protect us and to be kept in check. The government is no more an enemy than we the people are to ourselvess. It requires a given discretion in its efficiency and is set up to be a protector. It is us - not apart from us.

RaySouthwell
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RaySouthwell 06/21/14 - 09:18 am
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Thomas Pain

Government cannot protect us. That responsibilities falls on us all.

Thomas pain stated- "Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one . . . "
see- http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine

Patrick Henry feared a large central government. He argued against the Constitution. Others agreed and the Constitution was adopted only because of the promise to codify SOME of our Unalienable Rights in what is called the"Bill of Rights."

Henry said it best as documented in the 1817 publication called "The Life and Character of Patrick Henry." "Oh, sir, we should have fine times, indeed, if to punish tyrants, it were only necessary to assemble the people! Your arms wherewith you could defend yourselves are gone!"
(Debates in Virginia on whether to adopt the Constitution.)

So the founders understanding government as a necessary evil codified the existing right of gun ownership. Thereby always leaving the power in the hands of the people. Today, a large minority understands and continue to arm themselves and join with others.

I appreciate the dialog on the big picture. There are similarities on the issues revolving around the increasing violence in our society.

I am sure most will not agree with me on what is happening on a world scene. But can we agree on what needs to be done surrounding the issue of murder/suicide? I repeat my thoughts from my last post-

What about the issue surrounding Pastor Earl Moore? Why was he hopeless? Why did his faith not help him in his desperate time? We can all speculate. But with discussion, society can change. By understanding humans fragility we can give hope. Suicide is a disease not a conscious decision. In my experiences, with people, suicide only occurs when individuals see no hope in a future. How could we change our society to give hope? Simply, we could just treat each other with respect. Not going to happen as a whole. But we could reach out to individuals who we see becoming isolated.

It may seem silly but that is what I did in the 90's with establishing the historical militia. Giving people hope and bringing them back from desperate behavior. Today, the militia is expanding not because of desperation but in response to government's behavior. People are preparing.

mikehu
174
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mikehu 06/21/14 - 11:48 pm
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Thomas Paine and Patrick

Thomas Paine and Patrick Henry were noted anti-federalists who added a proportion of balance to the influence of Adams and Hamilton (Federalists). I might add Thomas Jefferson as well. With others they helped push Madison to keep his promise in creating a bill of rights. Madison himself was really a balancer/moderate between the two fronts. The Constitution was oriented around government rules but provided no protection from abuse hence The Bill of Rights was established for the people. There are others out there who are more qualified to speak on this than I however. A really balanced treatment of this era is Gordon Wood's "Empire of Liberty" the second volume of The Oxford History of the United States.

http://www.amazon.com/Empire-Liberty-History-Republic-1789-1815/dp/01950...

The hard cover version is 25.00, paperback 12.50, and the Kindle edition 10.00

I heartily encouarge anybody to read this work as it is quite readable and written by one of the premier historians both of our time and of this era of American history. It is one of my favorite books in the Oxford series. It achieves a balance of perspective that is remarkable

RaySouthwell
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RaySouthwell 06/22/14 - 11:11 am
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Agreed

As you state- "The Constitution was oriented around government rules but provided no protection from abuse hence The Bill of Rights was established for the people."

And the Second Amendment gave teeth to the other nine Bill of Rights. The founders codified the existing Right of self governance/defense with gun ownership. Always reminding politicians we the people are in charge.

I also agree there are people more knowledgeable than I. But that is much of what our problems are in the nation. We look to the experts for answers. Economics-look to the experts. Suicide-look to the experts. The law-look to the experts.

Madison explained clearly how a united nation would prosper far more than a divided one.(Federalist 41). Europe has followed our lead. I understand Gaddafi wanted a United Africa under one continental nation. Madison also shared the concern of standing armies.

But once again we are off the original intent of my letter. So I repost my previous thoughts-

What about the issue surrounding Pastor Earl Moore? Why was he hopeless? Why did his faith not help him in his desperate time? We can all speculate. But with discussion, society can change. By understanding humans fragility we can give hope. Suicide is a disease not a conscious decision. In my experiences, with people, suicide only occurs when individuals see no hope in a future. How could we change our society to give hope? Simply, we could just treat each other with respect. Not going to happen as a whole. But we could reach out to individuals who we see becoming isolated.

So, should we just leave it up to the experts who tell us we have two choices more gun control or pharmaceuticals?

Will either really keep us any safer? Some would argue pharmaceuticals have made violence worse.

mikehu
174
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mikehu 06/22/14 - 02:43 pm
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The Second Amendment

I'm not sure about the rationale you state for the Second Amendment, I think I would have heard that more heavily stated in the academic realms. Jefferson did say that revolutions are washed with the blood of tyrants but it was also a time when weaponry was needed for any number of other reasons on the frontier. They had more practical functions at the time. Even Jefferson tempered somewhat as he aged.

RaySouthwell
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RaySouthwell 06/23/14 - 08:11 am
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Should logic prevail?

We all listen to the experts who tell us what we should think and believe. I listen to all and then follow-up with logic.

Weaponry was needed in the frontier. But why codify an existing right just to protect yourself in the wild west? The people retain other Rights not codified. Why was the Second Amendment so important, to the founders, they felt a need to codify it?

No sir, logic dictates the clear understanding that all governments devolve to complete despotism in time.

But as the founders stated in the declaration of Independence
"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not b e changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."

I have noted two things as I age. I have no fear speaking my mind and I have "tempered" with age. Even my grown children tell me how I have changed.

The majority do not need to fear people who think as I do. As long as government can maintain the dollar's hegemony status all will be good. But, what will be the human cost of maintaining our economic power over the world?

But once again I am off target on the issue surrounding my letter. I have given up on attempting to have dialog on the issue surrounding sound economics for my grandchildren's future or helping people understand the Second Amendment.

It appears I should give up on my constant asking how our community can become safer from desperate people like Pastor Earl Moore. I again restate-

What about the issue surrounding Pastor Earl Moore? Why was he hopeless? Why did his faith not help him in his desperate time? We can all speculate. But with discussion, society can change. By understanding humans fragility we can give hope. Suicide is a disease not a conscious decision. In my experiences, with people, suicide only occurs when individuals see no hope in a future. How could we change our society to give hope? Simply, we could just treat each other with respect. Not going to happen as a whole. But we could reach out to individuals who we see becoming isolated.

But no dialog. Perhaps I should give up.

mikehu
174
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mikehu 06/23/14 - 04:41 pm
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Natural law eventually

Natural law eventually prevails when historically, conditions reach a level where there is nothing to lose. We are a long way from such but all it takes is a complete collapse of confidence in the authority assigned to protect us. We have weathered many such times, the most volatile being the Civil War, the Great Depression being another near miss.

I have always had faith in the infrastructure of our government. That it has lasted so long for so many, across time and distance, is a testimonial in itself. That said of course, the vigil cannot go aslack; the beauty of it is in the dynamic adaptability of our Constitution. Government that is too efficient can be dictatorial; there is some comfort in knowing it is frustrating to accomplish "an act of Congress".

I believe the best general view of the founders' thinking is in the Federalist Papers. Madison was the primary writer thank goodness as he, Jay, And Hamilton pitched for ratification just after the 1787 Convention. The Federalists themselves tended toward government authority and arristocracy but as you note men like Henry, Paine, Mason, and Jefferson wielded enough influence to provide balance and get the Bill of Rights passed in 1791.

RaySouthwell
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RaySouthwell 06/24/14 - 07:48 am
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Excellent thoughts

Excellent thoughts Mike. It is the natural law that I fear for my grandchildren. As you say

"Natural law eventually prevails when historically, conditions reach a level where there is nothing to lose."

That is my point with the increasing violence we see through murder/suicide. People become desperate and have "nothing to lose."

Our nation is in it's infancy when compared to most others. Our government has been in constant battle on who shall maintain freedom and Liberty. It really comes down to who owns a man's productive power. The individual themselves or government, corporations, or unions. All the violent struggles in our nation's history revolve around that issue. Revolutionary War, Slavery, Labor movement, Civil Rights movement.

We are closer than you think to dramatic changes in our country. The final blow to Freedom and Liberty started in 1913. Three dramatic changes occurred then. The sixteenth Amendment established the Federal Income Tax. It took the power of the purse out of the hands of the States. Then two months later the Seventeenth Amendment taking the appointment of Federal Senators away from the State and placing it in direct election of the people and finally the establishment of the private banking system called the Federal Reserve.

From 1913 till 2008 people always rose up in opposition to our failed economic system. The great depression brought in change. The Labor movement brought in change. The civil Rights movement brought in change. But nothing changed since 2008.

We are just a few months to a few years away from the world rejecting our failed economic system. Russia, China, Brazil, India, South Africa, most nations in the mid-East, Indonesia, Japan, European Union, North Africa and others.

All these nations want some other sort of economic system different than the US dollar's dominance.

As you state- "We are a long way from such but all it takes is a complete collapse of confidence in the authority assigned to protect us."

But I respectively disagree. There is no authority "assigned to protect us." That authority was established to maintain Rule of Law. Our protection is our own responsibility.

RaySouthwell
1028
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RaySouthwell 06/24/14 - 07:54 am
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Unpublished letter

Mike here is a letter the Clarion did not publish. Our violent future is staring us in the face.

"For years now I have talked about the need to re-establish an old banking law called Glass-Steagall. It separated Commercial Banking from Speculative Banking. Established in 1933 and abolished in 1999.

Last month, the former President of the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City and current Vice Chair of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC), Thomas Hoenig, spoke to the Boston Economic Club. (http://www.fdic.gov/news/news/speeches/spmay0714.html)

His topic of discussion was his concern over the Dodd-Frank law signed by President Obama in 2010.

Part of Hoenig’s concluding statement was “To solve a problem, the first step is to acknowledge that one exists. Dodd-Frank sets a law in place, but it does not solve the problem of bailout so long as firms remain too large, too leveraged, too complicated, and too interconnected to be placed into bankruptcy when they fail.”

He goes on to say- “In the meantime, regional and community banks are smothering under layers of new regulations even though they are not too big to fail, and even though they hold significantly higher levels of capital than the largest banking and financial firms.”

How many times have we been warned? The next economic crisis will be bigger and worse than the last.

And what do the people think? We ignore the warnings. It reminds me of children at Christmas time. Wide eyed with excitement only looking at the pretty presents under the tree. But children never ask about the debt Mommy and Daddy generated to keep them happy for a while.

Washington DC understands. Acting like Mommy and Daddy, recognizing the wide eyed excitement of the people by giving us the many presents to keep us happy for a while. And we never ask about the debt generated.

mikehu
174
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mikehu 06/24/14 - 08:24 am
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Such thinking is not new

Such thinking is not new historically. There have always been those who see imminent collapse and this country weathers through such times The changes made were needed at the time and if there need to be more. I am confident they will be. What we have currently is a wider gap between social classes. It will have to comeback somehow but with the economy being so global we are in the midst of adjusting. I think our country will come through eventually just as it did a century ago under TR and Woodrow.

RaySouthwell
1028
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RaySouthwell 06/24/14 - 08:54 am
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Our country

Our country will come through. Please help me understand what it will look like with the loss of the dollar's hegemony.

The dollar became the worlds reserve currency in 1946. It was backed by gold until 1971. In 1973 it was backed by oil. The petrodollar is teetering in the mid-east.

What will the USA look like after OPEC agrees to take other currencies outside the dollar?

What will the purchasing power be of the dollar?

Or should we march to war in Iraq, Syria, Iran, Ukraine, East China Sea, or South China Sea?

mikehu
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mikehu 06/24/14 - 09:07 am
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We will find out. I don't

We will find out. I don't know the answer.

RaySouthwell
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RaySouthwell 06/24/14 - 10:13 am
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We agree.

We will find out.

Thanks for helping me understand why people ignore the world around them. Believing things will always be OK because it has been in the past.

You have convinced me to stop wasting my time. As a friend told me some time back. It is not people are not listening, they just don't believe anything terrible could ever happen to the USA.

mikehu
174
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mikehu 06/24/14 - 10:10 pm
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Not a waste of time

You have not wasted your time as I have found a great deal about your beliefs as well. Frankly I've enjoyed this little exchange. I think we disagree on some issues, concur on others, and agree on some as well. Why do we have to agree? Why is disagreeing a waste of time? All the same, thank you for enlightening me of your perspective. Cheers!

RaySouthwell
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RaySouthwell 06/25/14 - 06:36 am
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Nothing changes to the good

I see it as a waste of time because nothing I have expressed generated change. (years of attempting) We just continue down the road of financial destruction. I think if my communication skills were better I could better explain my concerns and understanding of what a successful economic system would look like.

I am going to do, as most do, focus on me and mine. My friends have given me that advice for years now. Time to follow their direction. I think how much better my financial situation would be if I just kept my mouth shut.

I am of good cheer. My mother is safe with my wife and I. We are able to care for her and ourselves.

Again, Thanks again for the dialog.

Stay safe.

mikehu
174
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mikehu 06/25/14 - 08:17 am
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I never deny that some form

I never deny that some form of issue is at hand in every given point in the historical timeline. However, perceptions vary from one person to the next. We all have our own truth and the future is not 20-20. I realize that is trite and hackneyed but I trust the more educated and certfied to do the right things. We have the voting booth to vote as our perception filtered through media warrant. We also owe it to each other to be informed but at the grassroots level I think information is less clear and dependent on the kind of spin our chosen media puts on it.

RaySouthwell
1028
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RaySouthwell 06/26/14 - 08:07 am
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"trust the more educated and certfied"

That is where we differ Mike. I desire/crave knowledge of the world around me. Perhaps it comes from understanding how the "experts and certified" have failed in the past.

I built our home. I researched all information to determine how to build it strong and more energy efficient. No builder needed. They failed me in the past. Logic prevailed over so-called building codes.

In healthcare, I desired a safer environment for my patients. I researched all information to determine what needed to be accomplished. The "experts and certified" failed my patients in the past.

In keeping us safe the "experts and certified" tell us we need more gun laws and pharmaceuticals. I researched all ideas on the subject and understand it revolves around the issue how we treat each other.

Our financial system continues to have the so-called business cycle. I researched economics because the "experts and certified" failed to promote a sound economic plan.

The best lesson I have learned is people will always fail. Systems must be developed to help protect from human error.

Todays economic system is based on making money. Not promoting success for all people. It promotes the failed human condition. To err is human.

Do not place me in the boat of others. I have and do read information from all sources. Then logic prevails.

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